Sin and Judgment — http://thegodjourney.com/2011/05/13/sin-and-judgment/

It's now time to think outside the box of what we've always known. I myself will tend my sheep, and have them lie down, declares the sovereign Lord. I think that's a profound turning point in somebody's relationship with God. And our hope in starting this was that this would become an ever-expanding conversation. Just two real guys talking about life, that's a nice tagline. I'm Wayne Jacobson, and I'm Brad Cummings, and welcome to another edition of the God Journey. I got an email from somebody after the Easter weekend. You did? And they spent some time with, I think it was some fifth graders or five-year-olds. I don't remember what in some sunny school place. Fifth graders or five-year-olds, that's a little bit of a span. Yeah, and they said that what was interesting about the day is half the kids thought Jesus was crucified at Golgotha, and the other thought the other half thought it was in Gotham City. The Dark Knight of the Soul is really Batman. I just loved that. See, they're in Golgotha or Gotham City. Yeah, the Dark Knight, that's it. Yeah. That is funny. I had a good shot. And the philosopher is the Riddler. Yeah. Really? Yeah, I think so. It felt like it. Creepy, isn't it? That's pretty creepy. I don't know that I want to go there. I'm off to Indiana and going to do finally this teaching on the scriptures called the Jesus Lens. The Jesus Lens. You got one. I don't know that I have one. I looked through one. I'm just so concerned at how many people give up on the scriptures when they begin a journey of love. The religious interpretation of scriptures is so strong in their head. As many of them said to me, I can't read the Bible without being condemned. See, I'll be honest. I don't get that. No, I don't either. So I'm going to help people. I've been wanting to get in this discussion all the time on the road, and it's kind of like the transitional kind of transitions. In fact, I'm going to do this on video, which I'm just going to text me to no end. Really? You don't like it? I'm just looking at you. I figured. I started my Grecian formula, though, so no. Oh, sweet. No. Sweet. It's the wet look. No, it's actually going to be. I'm not looking forward to videotaping, and I wish we were just audio taping it, but so many people asked for a video. No, it's not that part of it. It's just everything you add to a room destroys a conversation, even if you add a recorder to it. Now you had cameras and lights. No, just look into the lens and speak to the guy on the sofa. Tell him to reach out his hands and put them up. Oh, and send me $1,000. No, no, no. Don't go there. Just reach out and, you know. See, that's what I'm afraid of. I'm afraid those lights do that to you, because everybody does it. So I'm thinking. I'm thinking that all of them are going there intending to do that. Oh, no. You think they're going there intending to do that stuff? You know, I don't. I used to anchor the news. So if they don't go in there intending to do that stuff, the lights or the camera, all of that makes you go, can you send me $1,000? And then go, ha-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba. Maybe the lights are too hot and you get a little fried in your brain. I don't know. Well, maybe the health thing comes in. You know what's cool about that? If you can get past that. I hope to. I'll let you know when I get back. No, it facilitates a further conversation. No, that part, yeah. And I think if you can focus on that, that's the beauty of all this technology stuff. It's like, you know what? It's just a tool. Yeah, it is that. It can help people who are not physically there. And it's different, but the truth is, you can recognize that. What I love about what we're doing is, this furthers a whole conversation that, you know what? It'd never be possible. Otherwise. Well, for sure. I love that. Well, I'm going to see if I love that. I'll be praying for you, brother. A lot of email of late and blog postings and whatnot. People like Leroy's story. And a lot of people added the poor Leroy, the disjointed dog. The dog whisper. I like this from Ken. I like this from Ken. No, he's not the dog whisper. He's a needed one. Ken wrote this. Leroy wants to be loved, but Leroy also wants to be free. And what Leroy has learned is every time someone reaches out a loving hand to him, is to put a chain or a fence around him. So he keeps his distance. He'll gladly be loved, fed and cared for, but Leroy wants to be free. So he keeps his 20 paces and runs when anyone gets close. Of course, Leroy is still trapped. He's bound inside an invisible fence of his own making. But at least he draws his own boundaries. He is the gatekeeper. And that gives him some sense of comfort. He is in control, but he isn't free. The prison of fear is indeed locked from the inside. And the person inside alone holds the key. That's a neat observation, I think. Yeah, it really is. And I just... You know, it's cool about the whole bit of real freedom. It's not found in my having a sense of control. Because I think I've learned enough. I've gotten wise enough to go, I don't want to be in control. I don't have enough mastery of anything to say, Gee, I want to control this. It's the fact that I do trust I'm not alone and that there is someone greater than I who is active and engaged in my life. But I don't even need God to be in control of everything. Because I'll be honest, I don't think he is. There's other human beings out here that make decisions that do stuff that sometimes it's not helpful. I think we spend 20 years teaching people that you can be in control of your life. You can work hard and have your dream and be President of the United States or win American Idol or whatever it is that you want. We spend 20 years teaching people the possibilities are limitless. And you alone control your own fate. And then it takes the next 60 years for you to realize, I don't want to be in control. No, no, you don't want to be. You aren't. No one is. You never have been. I mean, to me, control is just an illusion. You think you're in control until you run into other people who think they're in control. And then it all kind of breaks down after that. And I like the idea that control is just an illusion. I don't have it. I don't need God. Like you said, to fix everything in my life either, I just want him to go with me through whatever it is that we're going through. I don't even think it's a safe place where it's like, well, God's in control of everything. And that's kind of like really, because I ended up with some really wigged out funky conclusions if I accept that as the first premise. Because then there's a lot of really bad things that I can't ascribe in any way, shape or form to God and his character that he then is the author of. And I'm going like, I don't think so. Yeah. Derek wrote this, and I think it's partly the Leroy thing, but also the kind of coming from the whole Calvinist slap of Calvinist for Christ's which was unfortunate in many ways. I'm really struggling with a life-lived love where my family, church and entire community never showed me love. I realize now that this is a result of the Dutch Calvinist beliefs, the work hard and then you die model of religion. Work hard and then you die. Welcome to this world. And we have the temerity to call this the gospel. Anyway, God's been gradually freeing me, and I've been running with him as fast as I can away from all that, but I still realize that I can't quite grasp that God in reality, in three-dimensional space on this earth actually loves me. I'm not that old, I'm 25, and thankfully God is not allowing me to be in that situation anymore, but there is a lot of damage from it. I was really hoping you guys could do a show on people like me and others who have lived lives without love, but with examples of how God has broken through all that and transformed their lives. Any thoughts about that? I know we've talked about this in times past. Yeah. I'll be honest. I don't know that this is necessarily going to be helpful, but I struggle with the fundamental premise that says I've not had any love. I think a lot of times our lens through which we interpret it, we sometimes narrowly out of our own pain and hurt squeeze that down, so unless someone loves me in my preferred language, I assume no one loves me, and there's tons of people around me trying in ways that is germane to them, but maybe it's not what really connects with me, and I don't think that is, I don't think it's true that no one and no love has been shown, and I don't want to be unkind to someone who's hurting. It's a good thing because people will write us, and let us know. I know that. Thank you very much. It's one anyways. But I think the reality is it starts from perhaps dropping the shields of that conclusion and asking the question. It says, Lord, help me see what I've missed. I didn't feel it the first go around. What did I miss? Where are you? I don't know how to do anything other than start with a question of, hey, God, help, I need some different revelation than what I have. And if you take the premise that no one in fact has, and I have actually met people where I would say that's probably true. They didn't have parents that cared about them, most friendships, they had betrayed them at some point, and I think I know people like that. But what you have missed, here's the important thing. You have a father who's been loving you, and you might have missed that, particularly if you were going up to heaven. But how does God win that in the lives of people who have no love meter? They just don't know how to detect it when it's coming, because even poor Leroy, he's out there, and somebody's trying to feed him and wants to pet him, and his alert deal is so up that every hand extended is a threat. Even if it's not, it's perceived as a threat. I understand. I understand the answer to say, well, this is the way that that happens. I can't say it does happen for people, and it's more an intuitive knowing that begins to rise from within than it is a practical external, here's four steps to get there. I think it can be something as simple that I think is helpful as unlocking the door. Out of fear and out of pain, we lock that door, we shut it, and we protect ourselves. There's a lot of courage to unlock that door. But I think sometimes, that's really all it is, is unlocking it for the possibility of something else, and then in the humility of heart saying, God, help me. Show me. Connect with me in some way. I don't think you can convince yourself. I don't think it's just, pray this prayer, brother, or repeat this thought several times or just look at the sun and realize it's for you. I don't think that's what it is. But I do think that we can, in our pain, in our own unforgiveness of I've just been too hurt, we can close off and we can turn off our receptors. And I don't know what turns those back on because I don't think God forces himself into that moment. He forces it, but I do think people around, and to me this is what living loved and loving others means is that if someone's first taste of the love and faithfulness of God comes through the way I treat them over time, and we've had people in our lives like that, neighbors that were crusty, arrogant, angry, and just because Sarah and I took an interest in them and loved them over time, there was an ability for them to not treat everybody with anger, fear, and suspicion. So I do hope on the other side, if you're inside that and you feel like no one has ever loved you, well God has and if you've missed that, nobody's going to blame you, it's not a well, you're a creepy person, it's just you know, start over, like you said, unlock a door, just say, God, I want you to reveal your love to me. But I want to say to people outside of that, look for opportunities to love like that, find people in your life, and they're not usually, if they don't know how to be loved, you're not an easy dog to love at the moment because you're not going to give you anything, but walk behind you 25 feet. But if you open your life and just are there and show people what love is and not use people for your own gain and toss them aside when you're done with it, I think there's a way to learn to love people around you in a way that helps them unlock that door. It gives them more of that courage to go, okay, well maybe this person does it, maybe it isn't me, I think the internal blame on people like this often is I didn't get love from my parents because I didn't deserve it. I didn't get love from people at my school because I didn't I'm a mess or what I think that whole self pity, shame based thing really does take people under at that point. And I think that's the horrible impact of unkindness is that the person that gets wounded by it unfortunately almost turns on them self when they're looking to find the answers to why and I'm going like, I don't know why people are unkind. I don't hurt people hurt people, but why do they hurt me? I don't know. Because they hurt people. It's like I don't know how to answer that in a one-to-one correlation because I'm just going I don't think a one-to-one correlation works on this planet all the time. There's stuff that happens like I didn't do anything that invited that. Oh, absolutely. I'm even in a broken world where self rules the day and you're in my way. I'm going to walk right over you to get what I want. That's more common than people who will lay down their lives to serve and help. And I do think that for me there's been some real freedom that just kind of says, you know what I don't have an answer for that. Why is that person, I mean, I've watched people that just have this incessant need to define and control and explain why that occurred and I think it's out of fear going like, I don't want that to happen again. And it's like, well I can't give you that promise but I can give you the promise that there is somebody that will never leave you, nor forsake you that will be with you and is a very present source of help in every time of need and that's good news. I cannot speak for any other beating heart on planet but that guy Jesus is available and you can know him and that is where I start to lose my fear of. It's like, you know what Lord, I think you're big enough for this. I'm not but I think you are. Say help. Yeah, and there's any hope for someone like Derek? I hear this question a lot from people when I travel around, feel like I've never had love, never had this and how do I do it and pretty much said similar things that you and I've said here in the last few minutes to people and I'll come back a year or two later and they're just going, wow I can't believe what God's opened up in my heart and so I know this is a battle of God wins. That's not just some kind of throw it out there. It sometimes takes time for whatever needs to be reordered inside the life to be reordered so you can see what's already true but and I just got an email from someone recently that went through a whole dark valley for a bit of time, didn't feel loved by anybody and I wrote me, I guess and I told him something about, you'll get this, one day it will become clear, just keep knocking, keep coming, keep seeking, keep asking where it finally has happened for them and they just immediately went, man, I never thought I would get to experience this and so it does happen, yeah, it just it's not as easy as to say here's the three steps to make that happen or here's the three places to go look, God's more in control of this than that. So how he wants to make his love known to you it's going to be very different than how he wants to make love known to someone else around you just know that he does and keep opening your life to that and looking for love, look around you and see where does something happen, where does someone treat me that might be what love is and sometimes I think for people who have been abused or neglected, you're hurt to what other people have done really shows you where love isn't. So now you know love is the opposite of that, love is the other side of that, what does that look like and I think even very painful bits in our life certainly make a difference in where we look for love but it also changes the way we love other people. When I've been really really hurt by somebody part of my resolve is I don't want to ever treat somebody like that again for the rest of my life, I don't and when that begins to connect with us in a real way some wonderful stuff can happen, I think. So Nancy Jo said this you got a little hit for your that we are the life we want or something this was a long time ago but we've had a lot. In response to victimization? I guess it was even the Leroy podcast, it's the God Who Whispers I was struck by Brad's thought in the God Who Whispers that was basically we are who we want to be I've never thought of myself as a victim but I realize with Brad's line that I am not who I have wanted to be either through the various seasons of my life I've had one or several conditions I felt obliged to accommodate this resulted in somewhat fatalistic stuck feeling that hash out with God regarding what I would do about it, it was a breathtaking idea that I had chosen to be stuck by not choosing something other and actually when I was reading that I think that's the point you're, I think other people misinterpreted it with oh so I'm a mess and I've chosen to be a mess and stuck in sin and but I think what you were saying I think that's the better part of it it's not, no you chose to live this horrible life but we all every day have a choice to keep going the way we're going or to stop a minute and turn around and say God I want to be something even if, I mean here's the deal even if I am a victim of someone else's wrongdoing and it has severely damaged me I get that I'm not saying you invited that you're master of your destiny and somehow you secretly wanted that I mean that's welcome to Satan 101 okay okay but in terms of glad to be here okay in terms of Satan 101 what I do then you know what in those moments I can choose to remain in my hurt and my mess and wall myself off and then it's like gosh I don't know how to help that I really don't or I can in the midst of that know how to reach out and say God help I'd like something different and I do think it requires courage that it's easy to wall off that you slap me I'm going to withdraw my hand and go don't do that again I think it's really hard in those moments of pain to reach out and make an active choice and that's where it's like I want to empower people you're still at every juncture still left with the capacity to choose to ask for help you may not have any of your own resources to do much of anything with what's going on but you're not so powerless you can't cry out for help so Chris takes it further in his flight of fancy so when Paul said he did what he wanted to do and didn't do what he wanted to do in Roman 7 Brad's answer would be no you're doing exactly what you want to do oh yes exactly interesting I didn't know I thought that I guess he doesn't buy the whole it's no longer I who sin but sin who indwells me thing either kind of steals the thunder of hope and the rest of the chapter right yep I am the I am the stealer of hope also I wonder when Brad actually touches something hot like a burner how much volition or choice does it take for him to pull his hand away I think I just said I do does he just react to the pain or does he have to sit and make a conscious decision to move his hand away maybe it's what maybe I'm wired differently maybe he's wired differently than me but for me it's a reaction not a conscious decision sin is a reaction he doesn't say what the idea I mean yeah that's where I'll be honest I'm a little confused by that because I think they're a little different I think well I think you misunderstood you clearly by what he said in the first part that you would say to Paul no Paul sorry you're doing exactly what you want to do here's the gospel of Brad I mean you do think sin is at work in us to make us do what we wouldn't otherwise freely choose to do I'll go one further I think we got supernatural evil that's hunting us okay okay I do think we have an enemy I'll sleep better than I yeah that's hope I'll add some nightmares to that next time I ask you a question you'll go one further see I do think we have supernatural evil out there it can find a place in me but what I love about what Paul's talking about is the differentiation there is guess what there's stuff going on in my life that no I don't want to do but guess what I'm doing and he's saying there's something that's in me the good news is Jesus can deal with that and it's not me doing it I don't take my identity off my failures no and I think that's what Chris is suggesting maybe and I think that's what other people feel is I am my failures and I thought no you're not but there is that there is that place I see what Paul is saying is he is acknowledging he's not just excusing well no it's not my fault he's saying there's something there he's acknowledging the reality of the conflicted heart he's saying there's stuff I want to do and stuff I don't want to do and gosh I'm a mess good news who's going to deliver me out of that I'm not big enough to fix it that's what he's saying and to me the idea of being a victim is when you stay in that exclusivism and you just go like well it's not my fault I didn't do it and I'm not opening up that isn't seeming to be the place that says hey help deliver me I'm not looking to blame people for what's going on like well no you really did but I do think that look sin doesn't force you to do itself I don't think Paul is saying that I'm not associated with this or I didn't have a chooser that agreed for a moment because I do think we're culpable I mean someone else wrote and said I'm terrified of every thought it's like well guess what I don't think you need to be terrified but yeah we are culpable I think that's part of repent I think that's part of taking ownership and I don't want to wipe that away yeah but I think people interpret that with a greater personal blame than you would ascribe to it but it would still sound like you're affirming it to them I would say I think I do the very thing I don't wish to do I realize that's no longer me but sin that indwells me I'm not owning it in the sense that that's me and that's what I really want that's not me that's not what I really want that's where this soul is captive to some brokenness but I don't think he's just excusing it by saying so I'm just I'm sinking deep in sin just I'm going to go for it but he does go back then who can set me free I can't Romans 5 Paul talked about being helpless in sin I love that understanding because I think most people feel helpless in sin and even if they don't I think what's scary is people saying well I don't do that sin and that sin and that sin and don't recognize the religious arrogance and things that fill their life that's even worse as Paul says than adultery or immorality or some of those other things so I really do think we're powerless to get sin doesn't mean we don't have a volitional choice to bring that to Jesus and say God I want you to touch my life and work on this but I do think it takes away from the fact that I need to be blamed or culpable in the sense of it's my fault because I chose it today I don't know I don't know that I'm looking to as subscribe blame but I would say this I've dealt with a ton of people who have sat there going like I can't get free from this and for people that have felt stuck and helpless in their sin part of me has seen at times some very effective help by asking the question you know what is there any part of you that is in agreement that kind of does want this let's just look at that it's not trying to blame or shame it's just trying to say you know what in terms of that true hearts cry for deliverance you say you don't want this and I believe that but you're still stuck here because Paul got an answer from the God who said who will deliver me he didn't stay stuck where he is for the rest of the journey and I'm going like gosh when someone is still stuck there without shaming or blaming or making it worse I do want to be able to ask the honest inquiry gosh is there anything about this that you do like it's a little twisted which is why you may be holding on to that let's look at that because I believe there's an answer to help untwist that because lurking underneath those things the choices that I make there's right ways that God would fill those needs and there's wrong ways that we try to fill them for us and I think when you can sort of in a an honest inquiry just go like gosh I know this about most all the sin that I do I kind of like it that's not that's not me trying to make someone feel awful but it's like well I do feel a part like I was choosing I'm not an addict person that is in that place of powerlessness so I'm not really wanting to speak to that to that person that's feeling I'm owned by this but I think there's a lot of time but that's possible in your mind that helps you understand that because I do think we're part of this process but I don't even say I'm not sure like I was an angry guy for years and I could manage it externally and thought that was what it meant to overcome it I could manage it so you wouldn't know it and it would blow up somewhere else but when God began to really unravel that part of me and I don't know that I ever enjoyed my anger it's just that it was a reaction to a lot of things going on my life that got untangled and it left me in a much better place being free but I look back at my life going I'm not sure I could have fixed that earlier it was a process of knowing him and being transformed in him and that wasn't just I'm choosing to indulge some flesh somewhere it was a reactive way that Wayne had gotten used to responding to adverse stimuli if we want to say it that way and God untangling that was just bigger even when I could avoid the external expression of that anger it was still at work in a deeper level that was destroying other stuff and other people in my life and so I do think there's a part of us that steps back and say okay I can't set myself free from that I like what you're saying where am I cooperating with this that's a good question to ask about anything where do I secretly love what's going on here and therefore am not aggressively carrying it to Jesus and therefore am staying a victim of something that I don't need to be a victim of anymore I get that I think there's just a whole lot of different applications of this to defy an easy explanation and I don't think I'm purporting to have the answer of all things I know that for me I guess I think they ascribe too much power to my thoughts I think on the whole anger thing one of the things that completely undid this little angry young man is when I heard someone say your anger shows who you serve can you give me a bible verse on that I went what are the implications if that's true most of my anger was not righteous indignation on behalf of the holiness of God even though I had labeled it such yeah and what I do with anger I don't call it anger it's just I'm frustrated that's the that's the inoculation of it I'm just frustrated whatever I finally looked at it and went even when I'm frustrated the truth is is there's the me and what I want that's not getting his way and that's my frustration that is really you know what I do believe that that is true that's showing so gosh Lord I don't want to remain an angry young man this thing feels like it owns me I would I would subscribe in my own experience I didn't feel powerful to be able to just change that like guess what I've just decided and that's how people heard what you said earlier so I think that really helps people understand that but I think what empowers God to gain ground in my life is when there is the humility of ownership of it that just says gosh Lord unite my heart to fear your name I got a divided heart I want this and I want that and I don't know what I want I don't even know it's good for me Lord be Lord in that domain and bring me together in such a way that you know when your eye is single your whole body is full of light well I don't know how to make my eye single but I know that he can unite my heart and it's like I'm myself stuck in an area and I do want freedom but at the same time I know I really don't have it that's where I start to then apply some of this stuff and say Lord shine your light search me see if there be any wicked way in me help me understand and I'll own it if I can't see it and I don't know how to own it I don't know how to get free from it so that is more the import of that I found that would be very helpful in my life and for a lot of folks that I've tried to help walk out of places that are stuck yeah and I think part of the religious focus on sin creates in our spiritual journey sometimes this self improvement focus that when God's going to talk to me today it's definitely going to be about my sin and where I need to fix something or try harder I think I would say I don't know how you would wear this I would say 90% of my relationship with Jesus is about enjoying him seeing things new in him watching how he's caring for my life and about 10% is focused on fixing something I mean that comes from him I think mostly for me it's like I want this fix that fix that fix I think coming from him what he knows is the relationship of growing love and trust will displace the sin as Paul says walk by the spirit and you won't carry out the desire to live life I think too many believers begin with I'm not going to carry out the desires of the flesh so then I can walk by the spirit yeah don't think of a green elephant somebody sent me this about golf and I thought and he was actually making the application beyond golf into spiritual life I thought was really true I love playing golf he said the culture of golfers causes people to see golf through a filter that says something is always wrong it's based on the belief that says something is wrong and needs to be fixed it's based on a belief that somewhere there is no success that golfers must continually struggle to find but there is no freedom in a formula there's no satisfaction in feeling something is wrong all the time and I do think the whole misunderstanding the whole preoccupation maybe I'll say of the flesh and sin often in religious environments really takes us away from letting the relationship grow in a way that's healthy alive and vital it keeps you stuck there at times yeah it really does it doesn't there's nothing positive about being it and if you don't have that I think you're just stuck in the war against sin I really think it's not about waking up today and God wants me to battle sin so at the end of the day I could be a better person for him I think that's what religion wants us to do and what talks about be holy as I am holy it's really talking about a performance plateau instead of I want to be like him I want to think how he thinks I want to love the way he loves and if I don't get to live inside that other season I'm not going to be able to just get up and fix my life and try to be more sinless and be like that golfer we had a golfer guy who used to joke about all the time because every time we're on the golfer hit a new club hit the latest thing for this or that I just want to be downstream of his rejected golf wear you don't want that club let me try it now and it was just because there's something that will fix this game and you know what those people don't enjoy the game of golf they can hit a yeah I have golf with too many of them they can hit 50 good shots and around and they shank one into the what and I blew my perfect anger monster comes out oh man when you live with that it just don't play golf golf is just about on its worst day it's a walk in the park with some good friends and I think the journey in Jesus if it's so sin focused need focused it's just going to wear us out and then this from Jason I want to know what you thought about this because I I didn't sync with his point so I've heard it taught and it makes sense that when Jesus took up on himself the sin of the world and became sin absolutely there's a lot of caps here all 100% of the father's wrath anger and judgment was poured out upon Jesus once and for all that being said it means that Jesus bore the judgment wrath and anger for sin past present and future and appease God's righteous anger once and for all therefore there are believers who say that when a person suffers or a nation suffers as in the earthquake thing we talked about a couple weeks ago it is God's judgment but my question is why does God punish or judge a people or a nation when his judgment already fell on Jesus and I read this and I struggle with the whole appeasement thing right there the whole thing uses uses language that I think comes from a really religious base even got the angry God judging punishing tormenting his son so now he's not doing it anywhere else on the planet anymore and I don't think you ever was I don't think God's judgment is I'm punishing people because of my anger and I think that's what we've often heard that it is so an earthquake or an act of God a flood a hillside every disaster is an act of God the angry God you know what I think those are more the acts of Satan I think there's supernatural evil that does some of that stuff and we heard about that earlier that's going one step further no but I think there's the whole planet has been subjected to futility because of the breaking of sin in its entrance and it has not been fully restored we're not last time I checked we're somewhere in the book of Revelation but we're not at the end well I think the tragedies of the world can they be devil inspired yeah can they just be that a world is out of sync with the creator that can also be true but to see that Jesus and this is this put Jesus on the cross to be the victim of all God's anger and punishment so now God doesn't do that anymore one I'm going okay again can't look at Revelation and say God's done judging and I don't mean judging and I've got to punish the people because I'm angry I think judgment as we've talked about before is to make right that which is wrong and twisted and God's judgment certainly that's not necessarily bad I think that's good there's nothing bad about that I think that's amazing I think I pray for God's judgment every day I hope he's not done judging because if this is heaven it's it's not what I hope it would be there are moments with my granddaughters and my wife and friends that yeah seems like heaven on earth but overall gosh there's too much pain hurt and brokenness God's judgment is not done and I would take exception to the fact that this wrath and anger was all what the cross was about it's God was curing in himself the sin of the race and God's wrath is God's love it's not this unrequited anger they just had to beat something up to feel better about itself I know in a lot of other religions with other gods where the whole appeasement thing comes from where does the appeasement mindset come from maybe I've just forgotten those scriptures but I really forgotten what scriptures are talking about God's anger needing to be appeased I I'm at a loss there well there's a lot of Old Testament language about seeing God as an angry deity but I'm talking the concept of appeasement he's angry I must do this to soften and satisfy his anger I don't think the scriptures are there I do think people see that in the offerings and sacrifices that God salvation requires a blood sacrifice so this is blood thirsty God that's got to be appeased by the death of stuff and then finally his son was the ultimate sacrifice that's how most people see it and I think unfortunately that's not really understanding what Jesus did on the cross or even the fact of the analogy of the Old Testament sacrifices I mean when you look at the Old Testament sacrifices it isn't this the head of the goat off wow poor goat you have the whole scapegoat you have this other stuff where it's like there's something about the innocence and the laying down of its life that if it's all about of appeasement you don't see the volitional act of the Lamb Jesus says no man takes my life I am laying it down and you're just like wait a minute appeasement would say well sorry it's just a penalty someone's got to enact it if he says no man's taking it maybe God is see that's where I'm going I think the way they viewed all of this the whole Old Testament the sacrifice those people were not there in the bloodthirsty cowering okay I've got to give up the farm animals I think they understood it very differently than it is being portrayed in that kind of language well yeah if you still got this God who's this unrequited, wrathful, angry judgment as punishment kind of thing, deity and he just exhausted it all on Jesus so now we're all done that violates the story in so many ways because then you just really that God is still a bit of a creep man I finally got my whack as long as I got to whack something I'm good now that's not a father I want to know and as I said if the judgment's all done it's just such a negative view of judgment I don't hold anymore I want God's judgment in the earth I don't see it in every earthquake I see God's judgment as God at work in creation to set right what sin has twisted and destroyed and there comes a day revelation I'm still there's a lot of revelation to me like you still future I don't think all that was fulfilled back at the temple so I'm going there's a day coming when God's going to make a new heaven and a new earth then there'll be no need for judgment in the sense of all has been made as it was intended to be when a homeless guy flicks a cigarette butt and it starts a forest fire and when you look at what's going on in Texas and all of those they actually have traced it to a homeless man in his little camp and you're going like is that the axe of God did God whip that up or is that the careless axe of a man that have had the horrible consequence well I don't know that you just get a repent and somehow I think when people have that one to one construct without God's voice declaring that you end up with a whole bunch of funky stuff that I don't think is true and I look at the whole Old Testament and the sacrificial system there's a lot of wonderful offerings that were celebratory participations a lot of the Old Testament sacrifices you might see them more like a shared barbecue I mean when the priest actually consumes and eats some of it but no I mean think about that it's not it was over in Israel and they said the place just always smells like a barbecue and just going what I like that smell they had a sense of wait a minute there's something of a participation in this this is not just the Old Testament racked stuff and I don't understand where that filtered in that that's the one lens through which we see all this and that's the lens I think religion has definitely given us the angry God needing to be appeased and now we're okay because he got it all worked out somehow but then the love folks the love crowd has taken it on to mean all sins past, present, future have already been resolved in Christ for every human being on the planet and you just look around the planning going I don't think so there's no there's no there's no rat left for those of us who know Christ and have come through his blood and life and that love has redeemed us as well as it destroyed sin in him I get that that's true in my life but in the world we live in there's much judgment still needed but that's not something I fear man I pray for that every day and embrace it in my own life and in the world come judge make right what the world has obviously destroyed you can be part of the conversation by visiting our website thegodjourney.com