Conversations that Matter — http://thegodjourney.com/2011/12/23/conversations-that-matter/

It's now time to think outside the box of what we've always known. I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the sovereign Lord. I think that's a profound turning point in somebody's relationship with God. And our hope in starting this was that this would become an ever-expanding conversation. Just two real guys talking about life. That's a nice tagline. I'm Wayne Jacobson. And I'm Brad Cummings. And welcome to another edition of The God Journey. Hey, so do you, Tebow? No, no. What do you mean? You're setting me up. I know you are. Do you, Tebow? No. You don't, Tebow? No. Why not? Oh, that's just weird. Why? Because I think it's weird. What's weird about it? I don't like how polarizing in your face Christianity is with people who are already struggling with the reality. Can't be a little fun. It could be fun. I know it is fun for the home team. It's kind of like the head cheerleader winning the Homecoming Queen competition. The boys who are nearer like it, the girls who are competing with it, just disgust them. So it's kind of like that, I guess. So I like him. He seems great. I love his attitude. Yeah. He's certainly not on the Jesuses remording me because we're winning bandwagon, which I'm really glad he's not. I mean, he says God doesn't care about the outcomes of games, which I'm really glad he's saying. But I just think he's genuine. He seems genuine. He's a pastor's kid, so. I think he's genuine. I don't, I think he's genuine. I mean, I have friends that actually know him and they would attest that he's genuine. And I'm gonna like, I like that. I do, too. I do, Tebow. Do you? Sure. You got video of this? No. You don't really Tebow that and do you? Sure I do. I Tebow with him. Come on, baby. You kneel down with the fist on the forehead and that's Tebow. Yeah, whenever I see Bodhi and stuff like that, it's all good. Tebow. Does Bodhi, does Bodhi Tebow? Not as much. He has lost a toe. He's lost a toe. He has lost a toe. He had to amputate a toe. Frostbite? No. What? I have no idea what happened. Infectionism? No, he, he, he can't. Don't ruin this humorous moment. No, no. Sorry, dad. The dog is, is for real huge. And I, and he's fast. I think he ended up catching his toe in something. And he, he so fractured it, they couldn't put it back together. And so it was like, it would be eight weeks of trying to keep a Saint Bernard down in a splint. Right. Okay, yeah. Uh-huh. Let the greater works begin. Or, and for an unsure outcome, or they had to cut off his, his inside toe. And it's not a weight bearing one. So, you know, we have funded, you know, give me four, Bodie. Does he limp or is he still? No, he's, he's, he's, he's coming back. He's, he's all right. I mean, he's, he's funny. But yeah, he's got three toes on his one paw. And so it doesn't quite look like a bear paw. Now we have a unique dog that we can always track. Cause he's, you know, you know, he's got his left paw and he's got his. So you can tell the snow prints now with ones of Bodie. Yeah, we can tell. There, there he goes. There's Bodie. Three-toed wonder. Oh, it's so sad. Poor Bodie. Yeah, I was a little, I did. He doesn't limp? No, he's, he's, he's doing okay. Cause it's not a weight bearing. I mean, I think they use them for stabilizers. But yeah, I mean, they just, it, it, it's paw looks totally weird. I mean, firstly. Are they webbed? No. They're not webbed. At first they shaved them all. They look like claws. I'm like, oh, the raptor. Yeah. It's like a whole lot better with hair on it. A raptor. Yeah. Most things do look better with a lot of hair on it. With apologies to all people. Sorry. There you go. Yeah. Keep those cars and letters away and coming. Yeah. Thanks. Put me under the bus. So. Well, yeah. So T-Boat of Bodie. There you go. So you're okay. So in a tense moment of the game when he bows down and does his little posture for Jesus thing. Does that not bother you? It doesn't. Oh, my God. What? Can't he ask for some help? Well, at the time when somebody's going to re-kick a 50-yard field goal, it looks like that's what you're praying for, even though he says it's not. But then why are you doing it then? And you don't have to take that pose to talk to God. No. And Jesus did tell us, when you pray, don't do it in front of people. Don't do it that way. So that distresses me a bit. Well, OK. Have some more peanuts. I like him. I'm a fan. I'm going, go T-Boat. No, I like what he's saying. I like, even seems the media, which is really against him up front, has kind of come around to go, what do you do? Sixth, fourth quarter game. Come back from behind. Can't argue with success, which is nothing like convincing media. It's not even that. I end up going like, there's something full of life and energizing that's coming out of that young guy. And I just go like, you know what? I think he gets it from the source. And do I have a theological persuasion about him T-Boing? I don't. I just end up going like, I think he's cool. So mindless dope that I am. Let me see how cool you think Aaron Rodgers is. OK. Back to Cheeseheadland. This is Aaron Rodgers on ESPN Radio last week. They asked him about the whole T-Boing thing. Aaron Rodgers is quarterback for the undefeated at this point, Green Bay Packers. But by the time this airs, they may have lost to Kansas City. Who knows? He said, well, I started playing before Tim. So these are things I've thought about for a long time. And I think one thing that I try to look at when I was a younger player, and I mean in high school, Junior College Division 1, I was always interested in seeing how guys talked in their interviews about their faith, or didn't talk about their faith. And then the reactions at times. I know Bob Costas, at one point, was critical about a player thanking Jesus Christ after a win, questioning what would happen if that player had lost. Or do you really think God cares about winning or losing? I feel like my stance and my desire has, at times, I feel like my stance and my desire has always been to follow a quote from St. Francis of Assisi. Can you imagine that a bell quarterback quoting St. Francis? Yes. Who said, preach the gospel at all times, and if necessary, use words. So basically, I'm not an over-the-top or an in-your-face kind of guy with my faith. I would rather people have questions about why I act the way I act, whether they view it as a positive or not, and ask questions. And then given an opportunity at some point, then you can talk about your faith a little bit. I firmly believe, just personally, what works for me. And what I enjoy doing is letting my actions speak about the kind of character that I want to have and following the quote from St. Francis. Is that more of a quote? I like Aaron Rodgers. That's awesome. I like it, too. Aaron for president. That's great. I heard this story last year, too. This one's supposed to be out, so it's a world exclusive here on the God Journey podcast. But there was a group of Packers that were in a bowling alley, bowling with some underprivileged kids. And no media was there, nothing. Aaron Rodgers set it up, rented the rink, got kids to come from the boys' girls' clubs in the city, got players to come, bowl with the kids, and did it without any media attention at all. Just did it because he wanted to bless those kids. That was pretty cool. Yeah, it was pretty cool. I'm not trying to compare the two. I'm a little, I'm a little, I have that cringe factor when I see the T-bowing and it becomes a thing. And I go, ugh. But like I said, I like the way he talks about Jesus. I like the way he doesn't seem serving the God of success eating himself. Every now and then I like a little lightning rod exuberant personalities. It gets you in trouble, I carry a shoehorn for myself. I get it. You know, that's life. I carry a shoehorn for myself. I sometimes put my foot in my mouth and that's, you know. I don't think I've done it here yet, but. We're only seven minutes in, there's still time. Just wait, just wait, come on baby. Here I go. I like it. I just T-bowed. I like Gert, Gert from France wrote this. Sometimes I wish I could force all my Christian friends to listen to your podcast. Oh yeah, that would go over well. He says it with lots of smiles like that. Said, my wife and I enjoy the conversations. They also continue between us as we always listen together. And I know although I cannot force my friends to listen to it, apparently they're not, and apparently they're not in French. I know that they're a real encouragement for us finding true love and this love somehow influences our environment. Pretty cool. That's good. Yeah. All right. So we. Apparently they're not in French. Is that how we supposed to be in French? I had someone write me this week just saying, how come your website isn't in French? I'm like. Hey, what have you got a bunch of French people for? I don't speak French. Hey, interesting exchange with our. I speak French. Do you? But I'm not gonna be able to. Est-ce que t'es parable bien? Sure. Okay. You didn't go with me there. Only thing I know in French. Okay, I don't. Oh, wow. Nice accent. That is just sexy. Oh, French. Shout out for Gert. I guess. Sorry about that. We don't speak the language here. Okay. So you, you just had something and then you did the French thing. I was gonna see if there's anything more in our. We've got a fairly active blog these days on blog comments. Lots of people saying lots of wonderful things, but I was just kind of looking over a list of things here. I thought this one from Michelle was kind of interesting. She said, he is so good. I think she's speaking about God, not you. Dang! Tim, I get your hopes up. I thought I had a fan. Wow, shoot. Oh, he is so good and I am extremely... Go ahead. I wanna see if you even know the pose. No, that's not it. I'll be in cheer. I did my cheer kibo. A cheer kibo. Oh, boy. Sorry it's not in video. We get that complaint too a lot. Anyway, he God is so good and I'm extremely thankful that I have found the freedom to know him apart from the government of quote-unquote the church. Thank you for slinging that freedom. It has been about five years in the making, but I can say that I'm finally free from that mindset, free to wake up every morning full of anticipation for what the day will hold in him. I still have so much to experience with him, but I know that he is faithful to teach me on the way so I don't get bogged down looking for principles to govern me, just the enjoyment of seeing and searching. That's good. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Please note, five years, there's time to detox this. I know people just kind of want to get into that mindset. Day one. Microwave detox. And if you do. I think you blow up when you try to do that. More power to you if you can do it, but I don't know. That's tough. Anyway, interesting conversation with my friends over in Kenya. By the way, before we go to Kenya, just a lot of, I'm getting tons of awesome feedback from a man like no other. You and I think Murray is as well. Yeah. I had someone buy 30 and wanted another 30, gave them all out for Christmas. Yeah, we've had a lot of that. Yeah. We've had a lot of that people ordering them in quantities. And I just have enjoyed the email back from people saying, I read this at the children's dentist's office in tears. And I was only five or six pages in and just someone posted a part of our Christmas story and part of the one that you had significant input on about the Mary one. And just said at the end of it, never heard the gospel put better or something. It was kind of a Christmas greeting on Facebook. So yeah, some wonderful feedback coming from that. But I sent copies of the Jesus land, sent 24 over to Kenya. The video I did on searching the scriptures and kind of interpreting scriptures, largely did it for them because I know they're kind of on a different journey and there's pastors and all their interpretations of scripture are so legalistic, performance, righteousness based. So we sent 24 over there just to kind of bless them. And they were back, can you either send more or buy us a duplicating machine so we can duplicate more? And so they've really taken to it, which I thought was great. But what I wrote back to them was, you know, I really don't think we need more videos there. I was hoping some of you Kenyans would internalize what you're hearing, kind of process it in your own journey and come out helping others learn to live this journey in a similar way. So I don't think what people only do is sit down with another white talking head and have him tell the Kenyans how they should interpret scripture. I would do it. When I do it with white heads, you pop them up. That's not good. Oh, he's got shoehorn. Where's my shoehorn? I'm sorry. 12 minutes in, 12 minutes in, you come up with a really crass little joke. Well, no, is it fifths? A little bit. Is it fifths? Minimally. In the spirit of the Christmas season. Oh, there you go. Since we will be loading this, by the way, on Christmas Eve morning, I guess. Oh, Merry Christmas Eve, everybody. And Merry Christmas to you. Thank you. And your family are looking forward to a good season together. Absolutely. Yeah. We're gonna head up to Shaver and have some fun in the snow. We're gonna go up there too and have some fun in the snow. If they have snow, if not, we'll have fun in the dirt. Either way. Either way. Seen pictures from the lake up there? Yes, I have. Man, but they've drained the lake. The lake is gone. Engines submerged. Shaver Lake has just become Shaver Creek. Well, they're fixing the dam, but no one cares about that except you and I. So let's get off this damn conversation. Oh, oh, oh, oh, wait a minute. Oh. You technically can get away with that. Anyway, I was sharing some of that Kenyan story with some of the people that pray with Sarah and I about Lifestream, what we do. And their comment was really interesting, saying, how much are you doing that? How much am I doing what? Helping other people communicate the things you communicate to other people. I'm going, gee, that's really a good question. Because I've had it on my heart of late. The last body life I did was about quiet lives, the profound consequence. How do people, because people I see that really impact the world are not people that necessarily the right books and are in the public eye and have podcasts and things, but people who live as an equipper, encourager, facilitator of other people around them and kind of embellishing that saying, gosh, that's where I'd love this conversation to go, not our podcast conversation, but I mean my life. Pushing 58 or pushing 59 now, seeing up ahead, I really have a heart to say, how do we help people who want to communicate these things to others really have the tools? And I don't know. That was a very provocative question turned back on me. And I'm thinking, I don't want to start the Lifestream University, so I'm sure that's not going to happen. No. Or the Ferrisectomy Research Center. No. No. But I- The Ferrisectomy Research Center, franchised them around the planet? I know when I travel around though, I know some of the more significant conversations I'm having right now is people who have learned to live loved and have been journeying in that space for a while are now being to say, I want to help this happen among people that I know and around people. I've always wished just that you are having that journey would be enough and for many maybe it is, but I know others are saying, gosh, let's have a conversation. How do we pass that along without necessarily resorting to the same forms? Gotta start a church and gather people. And so that's a conversation I'm kind of interested in going forward. I think it would be incorrect to say, you're not or even I'm not. The reality is I think it's intentional investment into lives. You know, I think that's how that gets passed along. You come alongside, you love people and it's with the intentional investment of time that, you know, John Wimber used to say, this is more caught than it is taught. Absolutely. And I kind of feel like real transformation when you're talking about relational Christianity, that is not institutionally taught. That is lived out and that is by loving. And if you add a bunch of seminars on it, that's not a bad form for giving people information, but that's not the same thing as loving them into a transformed step off the treadmill. Yeah. And so I sort of feel like, gosh, how do you do this? Well, part of it is by not having to industrialize it. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I mean, I think when you take that approach you're sort of like, well, now we got a product and we now got an output and we got an efficiency. And it seems to me that... And we now have principles to teach for others to teach those principles. And the reality is that the principles aren't true. The intimacy behind them is. Well, the principles might be true. They're not real. How about that? I just struck me. I don't know if there's something there or not. There's a T-book. No, I don't. I will pause while you T-book. I T-book. Thank you. Wow, you seem to be mocking it more than I am, so. But that might be true. I think the thing that I realize just because you've passed along principles does not mean someone has got that incarnated life behind them. Yeah. I think that's the huge mistake. And even the thought of passing it on is there's content I want to give people rather than how do I come alongside people and help them discover? I think where this conversation comes from in my travels is we get together for the day and we end up in some pretty neat conversations where people are open up about things in their life and getting to dialogue about it. And people are saying, man, we'd love to have these conversations when you're not here. And I think I have the advantage of showing up. People have read some of my stuff, heard this podcast, done whatever. They're ready to jump into a conversation about their questions, thoughts, struggles, whatever. And if I'm just hanging out with a few of my friends, that same conversation, I mean, we might be able to talk about football easier and T-bowing and Green Banes Undefeated Season and the weather and snow and Bodie's Paw. And there's lots of stuff we can talk about, but we don't find ourselves naturally falling into the kinds of conversations that stir the deepest cries of our heart. So I think that's more, rather than how do we pass this on like start the Lifetime University, I'm more thinking, how do we equip people to help facilitate that kind of dialogue? So when they're with people, the important conversation surface, not in an artificial way of, what's Jesus showing you this week? Kind of a thing, but just, yeah. Tone of voice that normally I can reprimand it for. Well, we're safe here. This is the podcast room. We don't reprimand it. There's no one in here to reprimand it. This is awesome. Shoot horn anyone? With that whole dynamic, I think it's about true inquisitiveness. If I really am interested in what's going on in your life, then we're gonna somehow get past a lot of the shallow end, casual conversation. And at some point, there will be the sharing of hearts. I don't think that's a, hey, let's jump into the deep end and I would like to drown you in my profundity. What sin are you struggling with this week? You know, I mean, you might have an icebreaker for it. You know, but... Don't get me started on icebreaker. That's worse than T-bowing, Declan. All right, I got that. That's how to fake this conversation up from the very beginning. With all of this, I do think that, you know what? The reason those conversations and those statements seem so out of sorts is because they haven't been, they're not being asked out of a place of like intimacy there. You know, there might be a point in a conversation where that's gonna be germane to what's happening in what you're talking about that that question is not gonna feel like left field. Yeah, but that's what it's felt like to people. It's easy. It's a checklist. Well, we're used to having the artificial environment. We're gonna come together at 10 o'clock Sunday morning and now we're gonna have a... Intimacy. Come on. I don't think anybody's saying that. Oh yeah, that's right. They mean it. They mean it differently. Oh my gosh. No, it's just we're here and now we're gonna have, or like, this drives me nuts too when we publish a new book. Are you gonna do a study guide for in season or a man like no other? Really, people can't... No, I'm serious. This is... I'm so serious. Like your facial expression. This is not video. People are like, no way. It's like, okay, I can write a whole bunch of questions and be able to fill out things with scriptures and really do... Because people ask me that about the Jake book. I just sent him back a list of questions. Like, how about this? Did you read chapter three? What in chapter three touched your life? There you go. What in chapter three freaked you out? What in chapter three, do you think, is not true? What was chapter three? What in chapter three? Well, with any chapter... See, they feel like India's... Okay, turn to Hebrews 12, 33, which there isn't one, and answer this question and people feel like... And then they feel like they're gonna have a spiritual discussion, which to me isn't one. To me, it's just... Well, what did you read? What did you like? What did you not like? What do you struggle with? And like you said, I think these conversations come up more naturally if we're talking about a life experience we're going through or something that... What did God show you in that? Or I'm just sitting down with people talking about Julie Dogg being lost and finding her and just that morning turned to dancing is only a 30 seconds away. That sometimes gets into a conversation with people. And I do think when it's a natural part of our lives, it'll become a natural part of our conversations, but we're kind of set up for more of the artificial moments of, okay, let's stop having fun eating dinner now, and let's go have a Bible study in the front of us. That's what I need to go home. Yeah, that's right. I hate that. I do too. It kills it. Absolutely. I ever let's gather. It's like, no, it's not. We just were. Or even worse, the question was, what are we gonna start? What is this about, dude? Rev your engine, because the rest of us have left you. We're ready to go on home. Yeah, no, I don't like that anymore. And I don't do those things anymore. And I don't have the religious compulsion that feels like I have to in order to validate a spiritual life. See, I think that a lot of people, hey, can we have those study guide things? It's not just, oh gee, I don't have any natural inquisitiveness. It's like, that's the form that they've learned. And therefore I should be able to process this with someone else. And it's like, as opposed to- And I need you to process your book with me. Yeah. Why? Really? What do you really think? Why? You know what, I've sent people that little list of questions. It's almost humorous because it seems like- No, they probably write back and say, thank you. No, they write back and say, we've had the best discussions. And you wanted a study guide. You wanted it turned to Hebrews 12, 36. And why did Jesus- Is it right about that? Why did, it's not in there. That's right. It's not in there. Wait, wait, wait, scripture's wrong. Yeah. But, and I find it very easy now, but I remember the frustration. I remember being a pastor in our old days and Sarah and I go out to dinner with somebody and we talk about the weather, kids, sports, whatever. And so many times we go away from a meeting, gathering with people, or even just another couple of dinners going, you know what, God didn't come up one time. Our spiritual journeys didn't come up one time. And that's back in the day when I felt obligated to. Like somehow I'm spending pastoral time with these people and did I really pastor them? Did I move the needle? Yeah, but at the same token, there was a frustration of me saying, that's the most important conversation I wanna have. I do, when I'm with people, I'd like to know where you're at in your journey, what you're learning, what are you growing in, what's, you know. And how do you get to that without it being overtly artificial? And I don't know what changed for me, but now I don't have the time with anybody, even strangers next to me in airplanes, where somehow the spiritual journey doesn't come up in a very natural, not, okay, love, if this airplane were to crash this afternoon, or you know what you're gonna have in your house. I think the reason that that is, is because you no longer have the artificial form of how do I get them to attend something? You're not having to. Or how do I get them to accept something, be converted to something? Yeah, it's like real conversations come out of the real things that are in people's lives. If Jesus was still an artificial bandaid on your normal life, it's gonna feel that way. Okay, but even when it wasn't, I didn't know how else to do it. But you see, that's the whole little religious form. It is, absolutely. That's the compulsion part. You sort of feel like, I had best do this, good Christians do this. I did have that to some extent, but there was also a desire me to really have that conversation with people, to realize, guys, we're spending an evening together. Really? And we didn't talk about God at all. They were spending an evening with you, they were out with the pastor, they might not have had as natural a moment as that. I mean, at least I, some people didn't know how to relate to me. Now, oh, Pastor Brad or Brother Brad, and you just go, I stop, Plumber John. I mean, stop that. Just call me by my name, please. I'm a person, not a function. I had people actually introduce me. They said, this is my mom and dad. You're here from Wisconsin, whatever, Wayne. This is our pastor. He didn't think he is our pastor, but he's our pastor. Go on. That's the religious pacifier. Ah, it's horrible. But I think that's why some of that is stilted and it's because they're playing the religious roles. When you're just sitting down with a friend, you're gonna be you. Yep. Okay, well, that's gonna be a natural conversation, whatever it's about. But part of this season in transitioning, even for me, I found it very, if they didn't ask me a question from my books, something going on in my life, whatever, I had a hard time going, how do I get this? And I would use some of those artificial things that, well, what do you feel like juice is showing you this week? I'm just like taking a wet blanket and draping it over the conversation. Hold my finger. You don't know why. No, it's not like that at all. It was more like tea-bowing. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Really? Yeah, why? Really? See, if you feel the compulsion in those moments and that's the way it's, it also puts it in a religious form. Absolutely agree with that. Absolutely, but if you don't have the compulsion, you just have a desire. But I think you could ask the same thing and it actually comes out natural if it's not with that sense of compulsion. If it is, I don't know how to take the compulsion off because it's a compulsion, it's out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. Okay? What, you didn't follow that? No, I followed it all. And then I felt like I was in the middle of the corn maze. I don't know how to get out of here. No, there's things that I think we do that we don't recognize why they spring up and it takes a while to sort of dial that back. I know what it is to ask the same questions from a different motivation. And they're totally different. I get that, but I often find too, now even if you're talking about the weather, talking about our kids at school doing this, whatever, and each time I go, so what's God showing you this week? That always seems out of the blue. That's a little bit of a left at turn. And even if I'm sincere about it, the other boys go, wow, God show me something this week and then you watch them kind of keep eating their food. I find it a lot easier just to, instead of asking the question, oftentimes, just to share out of my life, just, you know what, I was going through this experience with Julie or I read this this morning in a book or whatever. You jump out of the pool first. Yeah, and then people are saying, well, you know what, I've been thinking, I've been thinking about this, and there's ways to kind of more naturally get into that conversation in a way that I think is the essence of fellowship. I think fellowship is friendship and it's friendship about the very normal things in life, but it also is a friendship that shares Jesus at the heart of it. So at some point we're getting to, and not every time I'm with people, I don't feel that compulsion at all or even desire, but often when I'm with people, I really, I heard somebody say this is their life mission. This was printed somewhere. So I don't remember. I said, you know, mission statement for a life. But this is what they come up with. And I love it. I've stolen it everywhere I go. So I want to have conversations that matter with people who care. I love that. There you go. I love that simplicity of not conversations that care about people who matter. Not that, it's a very different thing. That would more kind of go in the gossip category of things, but the more just I want to have conversations that matter with people who care about that conversation and not have conversations that matter with people who don't care, because that's no fun dragging people into the deep end of the pool when they don't know how to swim. Yeah, I think some people, thank you for drowning me. Yeah. And it feels like that too. Just overwhelmed. I got, boy, Wayne loaded me up with an hours with his stuff tonight and that ended the conversation. I'm not interested in that, but I really do love having, even thinking, like you said, I think what's where it kind of begins, you said this about 20 minutes ago, but intentionally walking alongside people. I mean, you and I are in a place where a lot of people call us for help. Like you get the phone call you mentioned last week. Yeah. No speaker phone. We're gonna have a fight now. Would you help referee? You get that. I do. I get that. I get people who call me or talk to me and come by and sometimes we'll get with me and they've got, you know, I've been really wanting to ask you this. And I will forward mine back to yours. People will get caught in the endless loop and you and I will never get another phone call. I'll be perfect. As soon as one time I hear somebody go, Brad, no, Wayne, I'm gonna forward my calls right on to you. Your home phone. My wife will say that. Hi Kelly, hope you're enjoying it. I look at the whole dynamics of, you know what, I can be intentional, but if I don't understand the frequency of where that person's is at, I can drown them. I'm an intense person, okay? There's not a lot of people who are wired the same way I am. They're just art, okay? I've learned that. I've made a mistake like that for a long time. I finally realized, you know what? Dial it back. Find the frequency they're at and be a gift to the conversation. If all of a sudden I come in, hey, I mean, it's like, you know, it's like, that's just this, whoa. And I think in the whole dynamic, I mean, I had a marvelous time coming back from Shaver and I was in the car with Jonathan and I had had a whole bunch of time with Jared and we just said, you know what? Time to invest in son number two. Well, he's not the talkative one. He can be, but he's not. He does it on his terms. I'm a talkative guy. No. Yeah. No, really? Oh yeah, I know. Why? Really? Yeah. Really? Yeah, but I sit there and I had the presence of mind to say, you know what? His love language is simply being there. It's physical presence. It's physical touch. If he wants to talk, let's talk. So I will ask questions, okay? But he may give one word answers and it's a valid one. Is there more in his head? Oh yes, there is. Still waters run real deep, okay? Yeah. But if I'm gonna love him and just allow him to enjoy the time together, I wanted to come in at his frequency and at his invitation. And when he wanted to talk, we talked. I probably in a six hour journey because we had traffic. Wow. Bad day to come back. When did you come back, Sunday night? Wow. With that, I realized we probably could have logged maybe 27 and a half minutes of conversation. We had a glorious time. And I know he felt invested, loved, heard and understood. And I wasn't feeling dissed. And I'm sitting here like, you know, for me, it's like, did that fill up my cup? Uh-uh. So I remember Trippie and I took to San Francisco. Yeah, yeah. Literally, we talked all the way up there, six hour drive all the way back and we were still seeing my driveway trying to finish the conversation before I could go inside. Yeah, yeah. So that's cup runneth over moment. Yes, absolutely. But I wasn't there trying to get my cup filled. I was there trying to simply love my kid and let him know you're awesome the way you are. And you're different than me. And I think so often times when people are, it's like, they want that, but they don't spend the time to be observant to understand who it is that they're trying to share that with. They're wanting it in the way they prefer. I'll let you know the time. Yeah, I think it's the preference of our thinking everybody's alike. I think Jesus modeled that really well. I don't wanna push you beyond where you're ready to go with them. Even not just with your verbal, not verbal. It's just not gonna go. Yeah, just not gonna, if it's not gonna help you, what Paul says in Ephesians four about giving grace to the hearer, that our perspective in a conversation is not what do I want, what do I need? What am I going to get out of this? It really is, how do I impart grace to the hearer? And if it's like you're saying, if it's 27 minutes of conversation, six hours, and that imparts grace to the hearer, that's a lovely thing. And it's really tuned in to where that person is at and not trying to, okay, this is our time to have quality time, son-in-law. Let's start talking about that. Yeah, so tell me, you know, spill it. What are the good, how do we feel so forced and so unfun? And so many of our quote unquote church experiences, I think have been like study guides and forced conversations. They're kind of forced into, okay, everybody answer this and oftentimes there's a right answer and nobody wants to have the wrong answers nobody shares if there's any thought that there's a right answer here. And we've had those forced conversations that we don't even know, like somebody said a long time ago, religion makes you religionally challenged. It really does. This makes you be impossible in a conversation about things about God that's not forced or artificial but is really looking, how is this communicating to them? Is this being helpful? And if not backing off, not just pushing it because I've got an agenda I want to bleed through on it. I mean, that's a great word right there as far as, you know, that's one of our buzzwords, agenda. Because I do think that so often times you're not having a conversation, you're agendizing at this moment. Yeah. And it's like, well, nobody likes that. I've got a conversant, you haven't got somebody to converse with, you've got a captive. Just go into a store that you choose and want to go into and the, can I help you? No, back off. I mean, Just looking? Yeah. Or you can T-bow. You know, I think I will. I think that would be funny. Can I help you? Yeah, go back off. I'll have to say I'll do the St. Francis of the CC T-bow on it. Now you said that with a little lisp in your voice. I love St. Francis. I do too. It's in the CIS part that you distal this. The CIS part? Oh. No, you were, no, no, I thought you were going for squirrel meat. I think you were going for squirrel meat. Yeah, really. Why? You know, so, but I look at that and it's like. You're mocking's running quite hard today. Yeah. The mock meter is off. It's the day before Christmas. Be nice. Merry Christmas. Well, now it's perfect. I love you with the love of the Lord. I shut up. With all of that, it's like when it's, when it's genuine and I have the presence of mind to say, you know what, as opposed to, all right, I'm going to achieve the kingdom of God here. Maybe back off and then find out, how do I just love somebody and have fun? I'm an intense guy. Okay. I can steamroll most people. Really? Yeah. They don't seem to like it. Really? Really? Yeah. Wow, it's even more amazing. You do it. They don't like it. They're shocked. Yeah. You're like, wow, amazing confessions right here. No, I get all that. The challenge is to actually come in and do that lost art of listening and observing and just going, what frequency is this at? How do I come into this where it is not going to be such a disruption? Or, you know, it's like trying to get onto the freeway. Everyone's driving 95 in your park. Like, dude, if I try to get on here, I'm getting into a wreck. I've got to find, how do I match speed so as to be on the journey with them? And I think if we spend some- 95. That's a little fast for these freeways, dude. Uncle Buzz, yeah. You know? When you do that, I think you're giving a gift to someone because it's relatable. And then the conversation that's going to come out of it, it's going to be kind of natural. But most of our, and the reason that's not is because most of our religious conversations have been modeled by people who are preaching to us or at us. And so that's all we know. We can only put it in, I know something you don't know and my telling you it is going to help you whether you're ready or not. And- That's not a conversation. That's sermonizing. No, absolutely. But I do think people are challenged that way. You don't know how to have a conversation without saying, well, the Webster's dictionary defines. Oh, it's awesome because you get a bunch of preachers together. And it's just a little five minute, you know, the best of. It was a sermonizing. He was going, guys, can you actually just talk? That's what I loved about my time in Jasper. I was with a room full of those and nobody was doing that. Nobody was doing a little five minute sermon and kind of staking out there, little spiritual mark on the room. It was just people who were on a journey who laugh like crazy and share together and enjoy a conversation about what's God showing us in the world and what's he changing in us? And what is it like to live loved? And yeah, so that was pretty amazing. I love that because I agree with you. I think most pastors means I've been to, most of the time is spent looking for fire hydrants and marking them in the conversation. And it's just, it's not helpful. Okay. We're talking about dogs, right? The analogy. See, the kingdom of God is unforced reality. The kingdom of God is unforced reality, which kind of sounds like Eugene Peterson's unforced rhythms of grace. Come, let me teach you that. And if you live in conversations that way, I do think you'll have some amazing conversations with people, but it's not necessarily going into a conversation with, well, I wanna get this point made, that point made. I want them to see this. I'm gonna show them that. Those kinds of preparatory moments to conversations are not helpful to having a conversation. I think, I mean, when you convince someone against their will, like you've manipulated them to a confessed conclusion. Or you just overwhelm them. The reality is they didn't go with you. No. And next week, they're back where they were. Even if they nodded and said, no, but you agree. Even if they gave their heart to Jesus. They did it. Yes, absolutely. They pacified you in that moment to say, back off, buddy. And they did what they had to do to get out of there. Yeah, absolutely. So it's like, I think so often times, people are having religious interrogations and they're getting forced confessions that have no reality to them. Yeah, so unforced reality is not forcing it, but finding a way into something that's real. My heart, their heart, connection. And that's not a religiously manipulated event. That is anything but conversations that matter with people who care. I got that. I love that. I love that expression. Keep it traveling with us on The God Journey. You can be part of the conversation by visiting our website, thegodjourney.com.