Genuineness And the Machine (#582) — http://thegodjourney.com/2017/05/12/genuineness-and-the-machine-582/

Outside the box of religious obligation lies a road less traveled into the heart of the father's affection. Slinging freedom all over the place, this is The God, the God, the God. You've been a traveling fool, as have I. Where have you been? I know where I've been. I have been. I have been. I have actually. I remember every place I've been. I was just up in Tahoe and did a conference up there. Before that, where was I? I've been on planes. I was up in Spokane in Idaho. Do you put this out so that people who are in the Reno area from the God Journey want to connect with you the way they can? No, it was sold out. Oh, you did a conference conference. I did a conference conference. What was it about? I was a guest speaker. Oh. I was at the Seven Mountains thing. You got, oh gosh. No, I'm serious. I know, but I still want to talk about it. No, it was awesome. No, it's not. It was awesome. We could talk about it someday, but oh my gosh, I'm not ready for this. It was awesome. I mean, God visited the place. It was fantastic. So I had a really marvelous time. But yeah, I'm a little tired because I just got back in and I slept and now I'm here. It's awesome. Yeah. How are you? I just got back from Wisconsin with a flight from hell. Oh, I didn't go there. First of all, how was that? Well, we had an hour and a half delay because of weather in LA, and that's not the airline's fault. But how often do you have weather in LA? The delay is inbound traffic, but they were down their one runway and high winds and one one, they were short. We had weather in LA. I just came through Sunday afternoon, back to everything up. But then we wait in the plane for our pods for walking up down the aisle, you know, just yakking and doing nothing. And that's like, we get clearance to go. So we're tucking up. Let's go. And we're not going anywhere. Five minutes passes. And then finally comes on. I said, we have a mechanical issue. Really? Nice. You're wandering around the plane for an hour. Once you get in the cockpit and find out you have a mechanical issue, get it fixed during the rain delay. Oh my gosh. And then we fly in to LA. We land like 1130 at night, which is 2.30 in the morning, my time, or 1.30 in the morning. Oh, your favorite hour. And then we park at the far end of the airport. And he said, there's a plane in our gate. Really? We're an hour and a half late. There's a plane in our gate. Of course. So it didn't do any good to get in any earlier. So you just had to park it at 1.30. This is what I don't. This is your happy spot. This is what I don't understand about airplane management. Oh, we have a plane here. I didn't know one was coming. It's been in the air for four hours. You know, it's coming. I had a gate for pizza. Man. But then this weekend, they're going to play gate shuffle. And they're moving everything around. And we're flying out to Denver. Who? They're leaving Delta and American. They're shuffling terminals? Yes. I mean, large shuffle. And I'm going like, okay, so what kind of chaos is that going to ensue? That's marvelous. I can't wait for that. Good. I really can't wait for that. I can't wait for you to report. That would be awesome. Me, I'm not flying for another three weeks. I'm not flying. But I am getting up early tomorrow going down to Whittier Christian High School and getting a little, he loves me stuff. Oh, very nice. They've been reading it in the junior class, all of them. And they just sent me a list. What, in public school? Great question. Whittier. Let me say it again. Whittier Christian High School. Okay. I missed that part. Sorry, I'm a little slow. I do have coffee. Doing a bit of a chapel as well. Oh, nice. So doing seven periods in two days. That's a lot. Wow. That's Q&A. So it'll be fun. Oh, very good. Looking forward. And then, Sarah and I run off for our anniversary. That would be sweet. What year? 2017. Thank you. Just wanted to be sure where I was. Okay. You know, affecting the future, getting free of my past. It's all good. You're kind of glossing over there. I know. But yeah. 42. 42 years of marriage. It will be if we make it. That's awesome. We make it 10 more days. We'll be there. It's like three times 14. And 14 is a biblical thing. That's awesome. Oh boy. Look at you. We're going to climb one of the seven mountains while we're gone. That's awesome. Because you like high places. We've got a backpack. You too. You like high places. I do. I like cranking high places. I like changing the world. I'm Wayne Jacobson. I'm Brad Cummings. And we're here for another podcast. Yes. If we survive it. My son graduates from college. Congratulations. On Saturday. Congratulations. That's awesome. I am so jazzed and excited for him. Yeah. But this is so weird. What's next? He's got a million-dollar debt and he'll be doing it. No, no, no, no. He got a full ride scholarship. He's coming out. He's coming out. Wonderful. That's cool. An internship through the Koch Foundation that he can kind of stipend to kind of go work anywhere that he wants in DC. He's going to make that Koch? No. The other Koch guys. Oh, okay. I'm sure they're not part of the podcast. I was going to see if I get a cut. Yeah. Discount us. Yeah. Of course. Okay. That's not going to work. Yeah. I'm excited for him. I think he needs a little bit of a breather. He's been in that just constant grind for a while. So we're going to give him a little space to breathe. Really? Yeah, for the summer. It's all good. I'm not going to put him to work anywhere. Any interns in the fall? No. He doesn't. He works fine. He doesn't play as well. He's learning to play. Oh. It's all good. Okay. That sounds awesome. Yeah. Speaking of Diet Coke though. I mean, I was an anti-Diet Coke land. I'm telling you, trying to get a Diet Coke back there is like buying drugs somewhere. Everybody looks at you like you're pathetic human being. Are you trying to ruin your brain on that stuff? Back in Wisconsin? Michigan. I started Grand Rapids. R.C. Cola is back there, dude. That's... No. I didn't see anybody else drink Cola. No. No. It's a non-Cola zone. You still drink soft drinks? What are you? Six? Okay. I don't drink coffee. I don't drink tea. I use some water and a little flavor now. Yeah. It was like... So you had the plane ride from hell and they were depriving you? No. No one deprived me. They just looked down on me. Oh, they're nice. Yeah. It's really good. Shame for existence. And they mocked you and I got to carry it around on my suitcase because people bought it for me and then they're not going to use it when you've got to take it with you. So I arrived at the next place back in Diet Coke. Nice. Bring your own beverage. But other than that, it was a long trip. I mean, I flew to Grand Rapids, went south. And then from there, went north up through up the Mackinaw, I think Mackinaw Bridge at it. You're driving, right? I'm being driven. Okay. Yeah, every point. Somebody wants to drive me. Offer to rent a car, but people want to get the garden spent time with me. Very nice. Boom, boom, boom. Yeah. All the way up the east side Cadillac. Potoski up to the Chippewa Correctional Institute spent a day in the prison with some inmates. How'd that come about? Gosh. Yeah. The guy that invited me to Potoski, let me know he's part of a prison ministry. And I made some crack. Go off. You want to go there? We'll go there too. And he took it as a, whoa, he wants to come here. So he worked it all out. We sent forms in three times. That's organized as prisoners. I sent forms in to clear, you know, do a whole vetting. Make sure I wasn't, you know, anybody shouldn't be in a prison. And we get there to check in. The guy said, we don't have your forms. I sent them three times. So they hand me a set. And I've got to fill them out right there for the fourth time. Which is your favorite. Yeah. You know I love forms. I know. Signatures. Trying to get a signature from you. Yeah. Everybody I know is scared to get a signature from you, except in a book. For some reason it doesn't bother me to do it in a book. Okay. But it does. I'll do that in the future. I think what I hate is lawyers because this form and the 17 times I have to sign it in six different places has to do with some lawyer somewhere sued somebody. Do you read them all? Or something stupid. Do you read them all? Every word. That's why. No, I don't. Well, I do what I'm signing. When I'm clicking on I approve. And you're going through locked doors that you may not get out. Did you have a good time in there? Oh man, it was the best time. Yeah. Yeah. It was guys because a pretty strong. What were they prepared for? Me. No, nobody. Awesome. No, they haven't read much of mine. Didn't know much. I mean obviously this is a pretty, I mean the guys in there 40, 50 years, some lifers. Wow. It's a weird existence and they're treated in some subhuman ways. That wasn't my definition. That was the chaplain of the prison. Really? Yeah. And I saw some of it. Guards just despise them and talk down to them and there's no privacy. There's no, and it's just, it's a tough existence. And there's a wonderful presence in the prison. The chaplain is a real passionate guide guy. He's not just, you know, administrator guy. Okay. He's a great administrator, which is why he keeps losing my forms. But he's very, very much got a heart for the prisoners. And there's a set of volunteers that come in there. So we did two different, I did morning on one side of the prison, afternoon on the other side. And one we had 10 people show up in a class. They had to volunteer to sign up in advance. And the conversation went really deep, really quick. Wow. And we had people walk out that were offended. There's, because it's. Offended about what? I wasn't as a name and claim it, blab it, grab it as they listen to. Oh yeah. You're not really coming from that. I was about, how do we learn to live in God's will for us rather than trying to get God to do our will? And that, that cost me a couple of people. Ah. Yeah. I didn't know why. I figured they had to go to work or something. But I was told later, yeah, yeah, yeah. In prison have to go to work. I was telling the story that I often tell because they, they ask a question about how do we discover? How do we connect with that living presence of God? Not just that. Yeah. And I told a story about this gal that had been led by her cousin into a meadow at five, a 13 year old cousin and raped. And so I'm telling that story and how her connection with God took some time and prayer. And so I just kind of go through it. We get done, man. When I just cry in his eyes, I say, I'm the other guy in that meadow. Oh, wow. Yeah. And I just. Yeah, it wasn't that same story, obviously. And he was older than 13 or he wouldn't be where he is. But I just realized how these are guys that just made some really, really bad decisions and got caught. And most of them, some of them probably are innocent and got stuck in there for other reasons. But it just, my heart goes out to people like that when you're there and you really, man, how does God make it real in here? And that was awesome. And then we go to the other side of the prison in the afternoon, there's 90 prisoners coming to that. And that didn't start up particularly well because we walk into the gym where the class is supposed to be. And there's a basketball tournament just starting. And again, paperwork hadn't got to the right people. So they shut down the basketball tournament for us to have a seminar on the principles of the kingdom of God, which is not what I talked about at all, but that's how they had couched this thing. And so boy, the prisoners looking at me walking out. They were not basketball guys. We're not happy. Lost their fun for the day. But again, I just said, you know, two hours. I kind of do a brief intro. Here's who I am. Here's what I'm passionate about. What do you guys want to talk about? Okay. And the questions come quick, fast, real. They're honest. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. More honest in a room of 10, obviously, but in a room of 90, we're into it. We're into it at the deepest level. And they come up to me afterwards saying, you're coming back next month. I said, do you realize I live in California? Oh, you do. And so I don't know when I'll get back. But I hope to someday. I still get a ton of letters from inmates all the time. For the shack, for different stuff, for loves me. I mean, it's interesting. It's like somehow I think being confined like that and finding life in there. Yeah. It's like their stories. I mean, they break your heart. You're just going like, they're, they're hungry. They're looking for, they're, they're trying to find freedom in a confined space. Yeah. And it's exciting to, to see some of just the transformation in their lights. Come on. Yeah. It is. And there's also a real suspectness around them that prisoners convert because they hope to help with parole and, you know, all that kind of stuff. And the, oh, wow. So they have to press through a whole bunch of this. You're just faking it. Yeah. Absolutely. Going to Bible study. You're trying to look good so you can get out earlier and nobody thinks they're sincere other than, you know, volunteers who come in and actually spend time with the guys. Right. They have a pretty good sense of who's living and who's faking it. The system distrusts all that. Yes. Yes. Wow. Yeah. Oh, that's tough. It is. It is a very tough environment. That's what I was talking about. It's, it's tough place to learn to live with God here, but God's up to the challenge. You're not, but God is. And so we talked about, that's when the chap on you, the word. You mean Christ in you is doing something there? Yeah. If it doesn't work there, it doesn't work anywhere. It doesn't work with guys like the guy who used to being a pedophile, which he never confessed to in prison because that makes you the low of the low. Yeah. But he's in a room of ten guys and evidently either was overcome or had enough trust. I'm not sure which because he was pretty overcome to, to come out with it and be honest about it. Wow. Which was, it was a powerful, very tender moment. And once somebody does that, then the conversation goes deep. So yeah, it over two hours and both sides of the prison. It was awesome. There's always weird checking in though. You're going through these clanging doors through closing behind you and you got nothing. No watch, no phone, no nothing. You have not even a Bible. I got nothing. Just me and Jesus walking in there with the chaplain and another volunteer who took it there. That was pretty cool. You know, I think when I, I forget when you first said that, but it's like, if the, if the gospel doesn't work where we're most broken in the, in the worst mess, it doesn't work anywhere. I've said that a handful of different places and it is, it's amazing the shift that it causes in people. Yeah. And I, I don't know if I really know what it is that it's impacting them the most, but I think it's like, we really don't think of it in that context, but that is such a powerful statement because it just, it basically says, is there anything here that's broken that, that somehow this is not supposed to reach. And it, it produces a shit. It kind of just people out of their performance. It's just them out of their sense of God can't reach me or whatever it is. There's been that blockage. That just has been a powerful thing to sit on. Yeah. I think partly it's been the whole shame thing. It's, you know, I can't make this work for me. So I'm probably the one God can't reach. I've done, I don't know how many people told me they've committed the unpardonable sin or they're just sure they have because all their prayers, all their whatever doesn't seem to connect with something real. And they really feel like they have done something so bad that it can't reach me. And I think when somebody says something like that, like it doesn't work for you. It doesn't work here in this prison. It doesn't work for you because the man who confessed the whole pedophile thing, he started talking about what his dad did to him when he was a kid. Oh gosh. So it's kind of, you know, like the Mack thing in the shack where you're looking at your dad getting beat by his dad. Right. And now you're seeing the chain of things. And yeah, I think people want to know because me and I grew up with a loving father on a vineyard and went to school and been pastoring churches and kind of been on the quote unquote good side of life. I don't know what it is to be at risk with the law to be, you know, to go through what they've gone through. And I think it really helps when somebody says, look, if it doesn't work for you, then it's not real for me. And it also breaks off a lot of, I think people's judgments. Because it might be working for them. Right. But when you sort of point out that those people that you're kind of looking down on, it's meant to work there too, which means it validates them in their struggle as someone that Jesus loves and is going to work in. Yeah. As opposed to just something you can judge. Yeah. That's freedom. Yeah, because I went off a few months ago on a podcast about a gal I'd been in touch with who went to a Christian counselor who's also a pastor. He tried to seduce her in the counseling deal because she's really sexually quite broken. And she comes out to, you know, what are you doing? And then she tries to tell on him. And then he lies about her that she's just making this. She came on to him. And I mean, when I went off on that, because I think predators for vulnerable women, man, I want those guys in prison. I really do. And then I'm in prison with them. And then I was thinking of when I was there was the tattoos on the heart guy, Gregory Boyle, where he talks about, I don't have the freedom to love the victims and not the victimizer. He works with gang kids in the city LA. And I thought about that a lot. I thought, man, it really shifts here. Man, I still want guys like that in prison if they're going to pray on women. I still do. But now that they're there, I want them to know Jesus. And I want them to find freedom from whatever brokenness drove them to that spot and find healing in it. So it's a weird day. Yeah, you know, it's weird is, I think, I don't think we understand mercy and compassion and the fact that that does not invalidate the fact that there are consequences and judgment for wrongdoing. Yeah. Those are all reconciled in God. You know, behold the kindness and the severity of God. They're not separate elements. Right. But we have a hard time seeing. It's like we can, it's only like we can look at one and then somehow we can't see the other. And I'm going on both sides. I know. Yeah. It's people over-emphasized the love thing and nothing matters. It doesn't matter what you do because God just loves you. It's all going to be okay in the end. And then there's people that's just God going to whack you upside the head and can't wait, you know. Yeah. And I'm going to like, to me, the only safe place isn't seeing both. And I think there's been enough of my life experience where I've tasted both where I'm just going like, no, no, no, no. Both are very active. Both are very real. And I see them wonderfully reconciled in the heart of the one I'm being tracked or being too. Yeah. And it makes me feel safe. And like this guy specifically I was talking to in the prison, if he doesn't get caught, if he's not in jail, if he doesn't suffer the consequences of his actions, is he in a place to open to God? Or is he just still lost in the desires and the things he's doing to hurt other people? So the way those two go together, it's lovely. There are times when God's judgment, and I mean, in the best possible way, the way we've talked about judgment over and over again. Setting things right. Yeah, it's not. I'm going to whack you because you've been bad and I'm going to make things worse for you than what you're doing. So you'll finally stop doing what you're doing and the whole fear punishment thing, which is a lot of what the high school kids questions are about. Oh, really? Yeah. I'm really excited because I think we get that so wrong. We think of discipline as punishment. And most kids only know discipline as I did wrong. I got punished. Something worse happens to me. So I don't want to do the thing that I want to do. And so we get that all confused with God. And that makes you not wanting to confess to anything. No, you hide stuff. Because if it is punishment and I thought, look, I already know I've done wrong. And if the remedy of the gospel is to make it worse. Right. Why do I want to do that? If I'm already under the conviction of I know it was wrong. Now I've got to suffer additional, meet it out, vengeance and punishment beyond corrective wisdom. Yeah. It's the Calvin and Hobbes cartoon where he takes a tiger outside and he loses it and he comes inside and he can't find his tiger. And Mom says, well, if you wouldn't take that stupid tiger outside, you wouldn't lose it. And he's sitting there by himself and he goes, there's nothing so horrible in human life that it can't be made worse by adding guilt to it. I just think that's hilarious. Yeah. Yeah, I hear you. But if we don't, if we don't find resolution for even our failures and mistakes inside of God and know him as the trusting thing. In fact, that podcast we did about God knows everything about you. Yeah. That came up a lot on this trip. Yeah. A lot of people going, that really caught them because they realize they don't want God to know everything inside of them. And they pretend to hide a lot of it. And just the whole thing about if you really know how loved you are and that this is a redeemer rescuing you, you want him to know everything because you want him to make right what's twisted. Yeah. Please fix that one that I don't even want to face. Yeah. You know what? I think that's why it's so profound. We have to know God's heart or we can't go where it's messy. Because that's, how do you sort that out? Yeah. Whether it's ourselves or with others. You can't go where it's messy. Whether it's my fault or someone else's, it's a mess. But if I don't know the heart of God, those are too painful and too complex to sort out. And yet I'm going like, oh, but that's the best space. It's like, I was impacted by something that I was reading out of Ezekiel 47 and I just want to grab this one a little piece. The farther the river that was flowing from his throne God, the deeper it got. And I just, it was really impacted by the thought that, gosh, if I'm farthest from the throne, the awesome great news in that visual is if that's his mercy in his grace, the farther away, the deeper that river was. And I just got impacted by the thought of, that is God's heart. Yeah. Where you're just going like, oh my gosh, where it's needed most, he is the most available. Yeah. But religion has not miserly paddled him out that way. Well, just reading the questions from these kids at the high school, and I know this is going to be kind of a, you know, do I get in trouble or the people inviting me get in trouble after I leave because they are, they're in Christian high schools oftentimes. I'm glad this will air after I'm there, so I have no warning. No, I think the deal is we're scared for our kids and we just want to keep them on the straight and narrow and most of religion is, here's the rules. And one person's question was there are so many expectations, I'll never be able to meet them of God. And we don't realize, that's just law. When I have a set of expectations, I'm supposed to meet in my own strength. That is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. That's human religious. You do it because you want your get out of hell free card. And God's got the ultimate, you know, incentive for you to buck up and pretend you're better than you are. But the honest people are the ones that really struggle, because they know, I might look on the outside like I'm living up to this, I'm going on inside that I don't tell anybody about. And it's dark in there. And so I don't do well. And if we can't invite God, that prayer of David, you know, search me, know my heart, see if there'll be any wicked way in me. I used to read that going, that's the stupidest prayer I've ever read. When I was a kid and in my early adulthood, I'm going, don't look too deeply, take a cursory pass and if you don't see anything glaring. I'm the guy that goes to the dentist and says, hey, you don't get the filler. That's kind of where I'm at. Now I read that prayer and it's just, I mean, I do pray that most mornings. I won't say every, but I do. God, search me, know my heart, whatever's still twisted in there, untwist that thing. And I can even give him, if he can't think of anything himself, I'll give him some, you know what, I responded this way in a way I wish I hadn't. And I did this. So what causes that? Search that out, yeah. And he does over time and it's just, it's such a delight. But if you don't know God as a father who's on your side leading you to good and you just think of him as the rulekeeper that's got that the hell card in his pocket. Yeah, then you just don't get into those kinds of conversations with him, but fortunately. Oh yeah. Anyway, that was a trip back there, which was that's cool. Yeah, I like that they got me in the prison. I'm going to read this to you because I don't know if you know Jen Hatmaker, you know, she. No, I don't. I've had people push her blogs to me now and then saying, I'll read this, you'll love this. And I have, I've read it and I I've caught something in her writing that I think seeks for something more than she has. Okay. And so three times I've written her. I've just, I felt nudged. So I've gone to her website and I can't get any mail address, but there's a contact form and I filled it out and just saying, you don't know me, you know, just encourage you and, you know, someday hope we have a connection and never hear back from her. So I'm sure she gets billions of though. And so I never hear back from her, but that's cool. I don't need to hear back from everybody. But then I saw somebody sent me this blog this week and it's my saddest Good Friday in memory when treasured things are dead. That's where it starts and I know she's a pastor's wife. She's a writer, she's a number popular book. She's kind of the media darling of the site of more systemically than you and I seem to for whatever reason. Help me. I'm a low brow. Systemically, think systemically. She's a pastor's wife. So she lives it out in systems. Okay. Yeah. Got systems. Got it. Yeah. I knew it. I tried to hide it in the systemically. I just tried to hide it. I thought, what the fuck are you talking about? What do you mean by that? Anyway, I guess she's had, you know, a pretty bad week and she's came out in a blog, I guess, and kind of has come to the conclusion that homosexuality is just another normal God creates and, you know, so she kind of really? Yeah. She kind of came there. Okay. I'm not there. I'm not there either, but she's, you know, she's trying to get to and this is, this is, I think what we just talked about about, if you understand how broken people are and that God gets to untwist stuff in our life instead of love, instead of love is, you are okay where you are. God loves you where you are, but God wants to bring love and life into life. He loves you too much to leave you there. Yeah. He wants to transform places in our life that are broken and I know people get offended saying, well, you think homosexuals are broken. I think I'm broken. I think every one of us is broken. That is so good. That is so good because it's not a meaner, meaner, you're broken. I'm not. Yeah. It's like, hello, unless you look just like Jesus, you're broken. Yeah. Get over it. Well, we have, unfortunately, we have made homosexuality the more possible. The more broken. Yeah. The more broken. Instead of religious arrogance is the more broken. It's broken. Paul says, cheapest of sinners. It's more broken. That's what I told the people in prison are just like, I'm too far to say, you know what? Paul was not kidding when he said cheapest of sinners. Religious performance keeping the law thoughtlessly made him the worst conceivable sinner on the planet. Not just religious arrogance, but religious murder. Yeah. He wasn't just kidding. It's really, religious arrogance is the worst. That's where I've been more broken. She says in the name of God, I'll commit murder. Anyway, she came out for that and everybody reacted and Lifeway threw her out of their bookstore. Oh, what a shocker. Yeah, it's never happened before. Okay. I just thought her words, I think a lot of people will relate to. She talks about being eaten by the Christian machine. And even though her husband still employs a pastor and she's still in that. Systemic thinking. Yeah, well, that's not, careful. I hope she doesn't listen to this. But I'm open. Anyway, you've said nothing but kind things about her. Yeah, I like some of her stuff and here she gets hurt. She had good Fridays about death, even necessary death. When I consider that day now in 2017, the punitive result of one of the wrong, of being on the wrong side of religion. This year, I deeply experienced being on the wrong side of religion and it was soul-crushing. I suffered the rejection, the fury, the distancing, the punishment, and sometimes worst of all, the silence. I experienced betrayal from people I thought loved us. I feel, I don't know how many other, I think she's probably referring to her and her husband when she says us but sounds funny. I experienced betrayal from people who loved us. We're in there, you know, so anyway. I felt the cold winds of disapproval and the devastating sting of gossip. It was a tsunami of terror. What a word. I like that. I was just thinking in the past decade, it's like, yeah. Yeah, no, that's, I'm reading it going, yeah, you're on a good road, girl, because this is going to hurt, but it said it was a tsunami of terror. 100 things died. Some of them died. The Christian machine, the Christian machine. I know, this is not comedy. I know you've been through this. She's going through it for the first time. I saw with clear eyes the systems and alliances and coded languages and brand protection that poisons the simple, beautiful body of Christ. Welcome to the club. That's kind of the initiation. In all fairness, I'm not, I'm not laughing, I'm not laughing at her in this. I'm not, I'm not. I am laughing about this because if you've been the darling of it. Yeah. And you were the celebrated. Yeah. I, I just now, it clicked. I get how utterly surprised and painful that would be. Oh, yeah. I just even admits the success of what we've enjoyed. I never felt the darling of anything. No. And, and, and we've taken it on the chin from lots, from the Christian machine. Yeah. I just go like the machine's been around for a long time. Not to mention the publishing industry. Yeah. But, but, but, but yeah, I mean, all of that is a painful eye opening. Oh my gosh. If you, if this is the first dose. Yeah. She continues. I saw how it all works. Not as an insider where I've enjoyed protection in favor for two decades, outside where I was no longer welcome. The burn of mob mentality scorched my heart into ashes and it's still struggling to function. No matter how darling and funny I ever appear, my mind knows the difference between the Christian machine and Jesus, but this year it feels hard to separate. The whole system seems poisoned and I struggle to drink any of it. Today, everything falls away and there's only one Jesus for me. In his presence, my numb, angry heart gives way and I sob without end, but only with him elsewhere. I'm very careful because I can never be as vulnerable as I was ever again. Wrong. Yeah, I know. Everyone else is at arm length. I'll be friendly with folks, but never again tender. You'll get the strong, varnished version of me, but I'll make them, I'll not make the mistake of handing you my true heart. I'm tired of being a brand because it's exhausting and as it turns out, it tells people I am not a human being who bleeds out. Say anything. Make assumptions. Write a scathing of her faith and faithfulness. After all, she's just a brand. Wow. It doesn't end as funny. No. I mean, I totally understand the pain of that, but I think that's largely because of the dis-illusion. No, she's, yes. I think she fully had the illusion and was a celebrated part of it and didn't see that. And then when all of a sudden that's taken from you, now it's like doubly dark. And it's like, well, it was dark before. You just were on the upside of it. It was darker before because, you know, as you said, when the light you think you're following is darkness, how great is that darkness? So, yeah. Okay. You can toss that on it. This opens. I don't believe the end of this. I don't believe she'll never be tender again. I don't believe she will. No, that just feels like honestly, don't know her, but it feels like a reaction. It doesn't feel like a calculated place of conclusion. How could it not be when you're still in the pit of all this pain? It's all fresh. Yes. I mean, this is not the gratefully disillusioned person we talked about. Yeah. This is the full on pain. But what she, I hope people like her can see is you were, when this machine rewarded you, you thought it was all great even though it was chewing up people you love just now the way it chewed you up. I guess that's, that's where, that's where some of my humor out of my own pain and suffering was just standing back on like, we don't, we don't really recognize that. Like when, when I get the privilege, the system's great. But no, it wasn't. It was only nice for you. Yeah. The system is, see, I just, I, you don't want to, you don't like this, you don't judge me. And don't make assumptions. You've already said, you didn't like, you're right. I was up at this whole conference where I'm going like, I don't know if this is where I'm supposed to be or not, but I felt the need to say yes to the invite. So I went, we're good for you. I don't, I'm in the midst of it. I also kind of went, okay, seven mountains. I think the religious mountain. I don't think that's a mountain. It's not a good one. I called it Mordor. There's only six. I said, it's not a biblical number. Not your trouble. I know. Let's come up with another one. But, but I sat there and I just kind of went, look of all the realms of influencing culture and all that stuff, which, which I do have a heart and a passion about. The one that I'm going like, I don't think God is looking to build a mountain. I just go like, he squashed that one. He ripped the veil. It was like, if there was one group, he ripped a new one for it was the, the religious mountain. And you're just going like, I don't, I think that's a disempowering approach to the reality of what he's doing for us to insert our wonderful hierarchy and pyramid of greatness and ascent. And it's like, I'm going like, so it's like that mountain is what she's now experienced being thrown off of. And you, you, you felt great the higher up you, you were, but I'm like, I think there's some fundamental flaws in that whole thing. Oh, taking your analogy. Yeah, I agree with you. But taking your analogies back to the conference you're at, they're actually encouraged people to get to the top of these mountains. Yeah, I wasn't. Well, I get that. I'd like to hear your, I gave, what was so, what was so fantastic is for God to be like saturating there. And there was just the, the freedom to be refreshingly honest. Going, I don't feel any depanter to anything. You couldn't hear a pin drop. And, and it just unleashed, I think such a loving sense of God is at work in and through wherever you're at. You know, the route to whatever it is that I've done has been circuitous and full of detours. And every one of them was valuable in terms of something that God was teaching and learning. And so I'm going like, I don't believe in the, let's ascend the hill. I'm just going, it's going to be a long journey. Just have it with him and walk hand in hand and be open to the many and very different places that God will have you and how he'll use the things in your life in which to sort of disciple you and make you like him. And it's like as, as that happens, the atmosphere changes and the people around you get actually a real look. It's something that's genuine and authentic. And if what, if, if, if there's needing to see you, it's not going to be a life transforming look. If they're seeing the Jesus at work in you, man, will that bless their life? And I, I'm convinced authenticity always opens the door to that. That's why I hear walking out of the prison and saying, man, we've never had a guy in here as raw and honest as you are. Because I think that's engaging. Like I'm going to this high school tomorrow and then, you know, I want PowerPoint presentation all the stuff I'm going, you know, the problem with the PowerPoint presentation, you know, what you're going to say in advance. Yeah. I know. Who knows that? Yeah. I just, I, you know, I know it's the deal and it's entertainment value, but if you get up in front of people and you just start telling the truth about something, I might have been good at that. I suck at that now because I'm just going, I don't know. And the whole thing, you know what, I hate about the seven mountain things since I already upchucked when you mentioned it earlier. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not you being there. I don't mind that. I'm not exposed to from it. Then this is what might have come in at the very top of the bucket. Yeah. Is that it seems to me that they charge an awful lot of money to try to encourage people who want to be in the celebrity side of any of these, whether it's music industry, movie industry, whatever. And it charges them a lot of money to come and give them hope that this is really a divine calling they have and they can pursue this and it's just like if you had a thing for young singers in Nashville there's people there who want to break into that. And there's no way to get there. I mean, not prayer, not, you know, if God wants you in those things, God will open, like you said, as you follow him, God will do that. But to actually say these are things we need to take over and use for God. I've never seen Christians take over anything in an attempt to use it for God that made it better. And again, I think the approach. They'll never invite you back. No, no, no, no, no, I know the heart of some of the people carrying that. And I got to tell you, those people have become some wonderful friends. I really enjoy what is inside them. What you just described, I can see. And I kind of like, I don't really dig that either. Right. But I dig the heart and the longing to get outside of the Christian bubble that so many of them, they're seeing. This is not, this whole religious thing, this has confined and kept the church in a very weak, irrelevant position. And so I see them a bit on a journey outside the four walls. And I go like, they'll learn what they need to learn. They will encounter that. I hope they do. What you just said describes every pastor almost I've ever met. I know. Inside the system it just sucks what they're doing and why they're doing it. If you sit down and have coffee with them and get to what their heart really desires, it's beautiful. It's tender. It's lovely. But it just can't find its way out of all those expectations and systems. And the reason I want to be in that conversation is to validate the exodus out of the one pen that everyone has been imprisoned in and to embrace the heart of the world, but not with the conqueror's mindset. Because I'm sitting there going, I don't think I'm supposed to climb up the mountain and throw someone else off. And now it's my mountain. I think we're like, I think like, we're supposed to be redemptively worked within. I don't think I'm supposed to take over because I'm going like, that still has all of its same yuck. It's just, you're calling yourself a believer. And the other guy, you're crying is not. I'm going like, I don't think we're supposed to treat any of ourselves this way. You know, as a believer or non-believer, I'm not supposed to wield my junk over somebody. And you're just going like, uh-uh. I mean, and so I think all of this is like, you know, I don't know, I just, I have a real heart for what's going on. There's a lot I do resonate with. And then it's like, no, I don't fit your little paradigm. None of those formulas ever worked. And, and yet, guess what? I've actually done something in a sphere of these things. Right. And I didn't do it the way you're saying. I got there a whole different route. And I also, because of that, have a whole different heart too. Because I'm not, I'm not thinking, oh, I need to dethrone those people from these places so that I can wield the power. Right. Right. Because I'm going like, that's, that's Gollum's ring. That's my precious. I don't, I don't want to do any of that. Yeah. And that often appeals to that in people, the people that are coming. Yeah. And that honesty and that raw, just look at reality, that's more attractive. But how many times have they had a guy like you there? They're going to have more. Okay. They are. Okay. Thank you for travelling with us today on The God Journey. You can join this conversation by visiting thegodjourney.com.