Sexual Brokenness — http://thegodjourney.com/wordpress/2006/07/21/sexual-brokenness/

It's now time to think outside the box of what we've always known. I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the sovereign Lord. I think that's a profound turning point in somebody's relationship with God. And our hope in starting this was that this would become an ever-expanding conversation. Just two real guys talking about life. That's a nice tagline. I'm Wayne Jacobson. And I'm Brad Cummings. And welcome to another edition of The God Journey. I don't know how you do it. You come out of that 175-degree heat today and you come over here in the evening and you're ready to lock and load. Yes, but you've got your fan working, so I feel cool at the moment. This is wonderful. And you've got energy and you've got enough from this construction vibe to... Yeah, most people would say I probably was born with too much energy, so... Oh, so this is probably good. Yeah, so I'm probably mellow. You get home, you wiped out, Kelly kind of likes that maybe. They're up at Pismo Beach. The kids are traveling, they're having a blast. They're out on a beach together without you and you're home slaving in the hot sun. Yeah, I didn't really think that was fair, but... You have to get Kelly back on here. We have to straighten that out. Someone's got to pay the bills. That's a problem. That's me. No, it's good. She's visiting her friend before they move up north to Oregon. Oh, well, that is good then, she is. It is good. I didn't want to stand in the way of that. Always pays to have a friend at Pismo Beach, I think. I think so too. I think that's a great thing. I need more friends in greater places that we can go visit. Yeah, well, I think you got an invite to Tahoe last week. I think I'll take it up. Yeah, I just would prefer snow season. Well, maybe they'll wait now that you're going to be picky about it. I'll take whatever is there, whoever that is. Thank you. Bless you. You're inviting a gift horse in the... No, no, no. I'll ride that horse. Looking a gift horse in the mouth there. I never understood that one, actually. Well, Jay took a wing at us, didn't he? Jay? Yeah, on our blog we got this. Oh, yeah. This was amazing. Most of you probably haven't seen it because I don't know if anybody follows the comments on the blog. Yeah, I totally forgot about the blog. You guys have such an incredibly narrow view of the church. I always thought that about you. This is about our Feminacy of Religion podcast, by the way. Oh, that was... Seems that you have some bitterness toward a church that needs to be dealt with. Sexual brokenness is an extremely important topic, but your flippant treatment of subjects is quite, frankly, disturbing. That's probably aimed at me. Talking about the fact that 60% of pastors struggle with pornography is downright bizarre slash scary. Did I do that or did you? No, you kept doing it. I think it's scary that 60% of pastors, if that statistic is true, I think that's scary. No, he says it's scary that we're laughing about that. Well, somehow, when you add humor into the mix, it seems to allow some honesty to get a little closer to the heart. I think we were pretty transparent on that one. I think I saw those podcasts that took a little bit of a different turn from what we had originally thinking through it. And we're talking about the effeminacy of religion and passivity and some of that kind of thing. And we got into sexual brokenness, which isn't nearest hysterical. No, but I think that's what struck a chord for a lot of folks. And then he takes this shot. Jay takes this shot. I said, your disconnection from the body of Christ is leading you down a distorted path. At least we're going together. You might consider praying about reconnecting with a church for the sake of your families. Although you may not realize it, there are many different types of churches with ways to connect. With which to connect. The very best example of manhood can be seen serving faithfully in churches all over the planet. Not the ones I went to. According to Jay. Thanks, Jay. Thanks for looking out for us. I appreciate the fact that people are going to be dishonest, but you know, I'm always concerned when these kinds of letters come, the tone of them is always pretty angst. And I warned you about poking that bear with that stick. Didn't I? Every time we're going down there. I guess he growled. This is one of those bears that got poked, I guess. The blog had a couple of little pokes at us, but they all did seem to agree that the circumcision song was pretty funny. That was funny. People are in fact looking for it, which is a whole other psychosis. Don't go there. Don't go there. Yeah. But I thought that was very hilarious. And my apologies to anyone who was offended. But I was really kind of in a humorous mood. I like laughing. And I think laughing sometimes is a great point of healing. So I don't mind a good laugh now. And particularly when you're talking about tough things. Sometimes they're awkward to talk about. But this little shot about your disconnection from the body of Christ is leading you down a distorted path. Well, it's just because we're so full of bitterness, Wayne. You know what? It's been a long time, though, since I've been accused of having a narrow view of the church. Well, yeah. Some people think my view of the church is so broad, it's scary. I have the sneaking suspicion that this is not a listener of many podcasts. You may have just snuggled on this. Yeah, could have been. But it might be a good idea to come back and talk a little bit about it. We had quite a bit on the forum and some personal emails and other things were particularly tapping into not so much the effeminacy of religion, but touching on sexual brokenness and the fact that, man, it was just, it was wonderful to talk about it. And maybe we don't have enough discussion out there in the family to help people who are broken. Well, yeah. I think that's part of what I know we were trying to bring forth was just the fact that, you know, so oftentimes it's an elephant under the carpet. People aren't really talking about it. And most of the time there's so much shame associated with sexual brokenness that most folks don't really feel like they can talk about it. It's something they keep in the closet. It's like, oh, what an awful heinous person I am, you know, I can just use more self-discipline to try to get past this. And it's like, you know, most folks never get past that. It's not enough self-discipline in the world to get over this. I think that's kind of where we have to get with this thing. People who try to conquer their sexual brokenness or sexual temptations on the matter of just human self-discipline and will, yeah, you can do it for a period of time. But at some point, two weeks, two days, two hours, two months for some people down the road, the dam breaks loose again. And if it's all, and I, shame's a great word because I think a religion trials, tries to deal with all temptations and especially sex with real shameful, shame dirty. Filthy, weak, ridiculous, you should be better than this. And I think many Christians carry that angst about whatever temptations or brokenness they still have sexual. Well, I think so many people have such warped concepts when we come to sex as if somehow, you know, God kind of set us up for the fall. It's like, he put these hormones in us. He put these things around us and yet somehow we don't have the ability to get past it. He's up there as the grand frustrator and just going like, I really don't think that's the scenario that's happening here. I don't think God gave us something that, ooh, it's just too powerful. We don't know what to do with it and it always destroys us. I think the reality is, is so often times this is a warped perception. And when you look at, good, you had a thought. I don't want to take it. No, you can. I don't want to take it. I was just thinking, even couples that Sarah and I have talked to in various stages of marriage will often say one of the hardest places to communicate is about sexual things and sexual desires and sexual turn ons if you want to discuss in the context of a marriage. What you like, don't like. We're here. It's absolutely right and an honorable and yes, a couple, if they're going to have a healthy sexual life together needs to be talking about, yes, that's helpful to me. No, that turns me off. I mean, if you're not having that discussion, how do you ever find a mutually fulfilling sexual life together? But we've encased this in so much shame and angst that even married couples that we know that pretty good marriages say, that's the hardest thing to communicate on, you know, and you're actually in bed together to say, oh, yeah, no, that doesn't help me or that hurts or that whatever. They're just afraid. And I think we've so encased this in shame that we're missing our ability to deal with it. Well, you know, our gender and who we are as a sexual person, I don't think you get more at the core of someone's identity and perhaps the insecurity in our core. I mean, that's like, reject me there and it's like, where do I go? And so I think that's, that's where there's a lot of real fear and insecurity is like, I don't know how to deal with this because I'm not okay with who I am necessarily. I don't know. I don't know how to process through that stuff. And part of what I realized what you just said, and I know it's been discussed a lot in our culture, the idea of taking our sexuality and making it our identity, I think, is part of the problem. It's not just a piece of who we are. In some quarters, my sexuality defines who I am as a person and I, I think even movements that have tried to get people to accept certain kinds of sexual behaviors make a big mistake when they say, gosh, my whole identity is summed up in my sexual attractions or sexual desires or sexual struggles or brokenness. I think that's a big mistake because it makes it, I think it's part of that shame-based thing that makes it bigger than it is and more all-encompassing than it is. I remember getting a phone call from a brother a couple of months ago and it was relative to something else we do on a podcast. It wasn't the effeminacy of religion, but he's a lawyer and he's driving through Mississippi somewhere and he's, you know, had a bad night in the hotel the night before with watching the wrong kind of movie and that's a big thing. Any hotel owner will tell you, in Christian conventions, Oh gosh, more pornography is watched during a Christian convention than not, than during business conventions. Google, they just did a thing on Google was one of the most sexual oriented searches are done in Utah, which, you know, per capita you go, Utah, really? That would say something. Wow. That's a pretty religionized culture. And I think religion in saying no, in shaming it, I think the proof is, oh, see, religion is sort of a bunch of hypocrites. I'm just saying religion fails to get to the core of our sexuality and get to the core of how God heals what's broken there. And yes, there's tons of brokenness in our culture by the way people were raised by the way our generations have explored sexuality at young ages to the accessibility of pornography to even people being victimized by abusers, which is the way soap and coke and beer and cars are sold. Everything is sold with sexual titillation. Absolutely. Turn-ons. Even milk, believe it or not. Those milk trucks, boy, with the short skirted gal driving past. I mean, everything is sexualized. And the way women dress today, I think we talked about this in an earlier podcast, the way even conservative women, the way they dress oftentimes is very unhelpful. Unhelpful. Very arousing. So you guys, we had someone write us this week. His personal letter, he kind of gets pretty honest, so we're not going to give him a name unless we give him a false name. But wrote us to talk about how he responded to this podcast and he says, and that was the effeminacy of religion. So the podcast correctly pointed out that most institutions fail to address issues important to men, specifically do not address much the issue of men and lust. Other than condemning it, telling you it's wrong, impure, and especially damaging sin, etc. Yeah, we really hyped this one. You got this one, man. Stuff is bad. Yeah, that's a whole other issue about not feeling the same way about arrogance or gossip or other things. But my disillusionment here is not limited to institutions. I feel disillusioned with God. Jesus told me that it's better to pluck out my eye than to lust. And what if a body part causes me to sin to cut it off? Obviously, he was making a point about the seriousness of sin and was not being literal. But the point is made rather forcefully as a young Christian, I knew I was an utter failure at this command and it upset me greatly. There's a, that's pretty honest. That's the predicament that many people find themselves in. And that's that whole shame dynamic. It's like you're in a pit of despair and what a dirty rotten failure you are. Yeah, and I think he kind of over extends what Jesus is saying at the Sermon on the Mount. Even though he says it's not literal, he wasn't making the point that if something causes you to sin or just causes lust to cut it off, he's talking about better to enter heaven maimed than to go into hell completely whole. And so he is dealing with the seriousness by which we take sin on. But most people have no idea how to live that out. That's being taught. And then we apply that in that same conformity, self-discipline model of trying to win over it. And as our letter writer here says, hasn't worked for him. Yeah. He says, thankfully I discovered the Bible represented the way through this moral thicket. It's better to marry than to burn. And he adds with lust. That's not there. Of course, I couldn't wait to get married and began finally living my pure and pleasing life. I prayed and begin living my pure and pleasing life. I prayed and waited on God and eventually found the woman that God told me to marry five years later. Surprise. Took about two months to figure out that being married was not the answer either. And I don't think, I don't think Paul says it will be the answer to lust. That's not what Paul is saying. No, I don't think that's a promise. I think the whole idea that, you know, better to marry than burn. I don't think there's a promise that if you marry, there'll be no burning. Well, and the context of it is Paul saying, you know what? A single life is preferable to a married life in the face of the kingdom and being free to do with the kingdom and not being burdened down with other kinds of issues. But he said that's a gift and not everybody has it. And so he's saying, you know, don't just pull, try and pull off this celibate lifestyle if it's not a gift God's given you and therefore it's better to find someone and be married. And even though that may cause you to have to be concerned about other things than just the gospel, it's better to marry than to burn with an unresolved passion or an unsatisfied passion. See, you know, it's interesting because I've, you know, having pastured a whole bunch of young adults, I'd have to say that Christian young people largely marry because of lust-driven desires. Now, that's a pretty broad statement, perhaps unfounded, but I did watch a whole bunch of folks make poor relationship choices largely because they were sexually driven. And you're just going like, they didn't want to be sinful. So they just wanted to make it legal so I could go for it. And you're just going like, I think there's a whole lot more to make in a successful marriage than just trying to curb your sense of, oh, no, this is sin. So I'll get married and now it's not a problem. And you're just going like, I think you're going to bring all those same problems right into that relationship. Well, that's what the guy who wrote the letter found out. You get two months into marriage. He's really like, this has not fixed his lust. And it wasn't intended to. That's not what marriage is for. He says, now 19 years of marriage later, I like back on it all and cannot help but conclude that God has set up a trap that cannot be overcome. This has eroded my faith, not just in institutions, but the Bible and God himself. Oh man, that is hurt. Yeah, it's like that. That is not the God I know. And no, he doesn't set us up as a trap and the grand frustrator, but I am sympathetic to how this guy is feeling because you know what I think so oftentimes the way sex has been presented, especially within just kind of the confines of the traditional church, it really hasn't brought a lot of illumination. At least I never heard a lot of it. And I do think it sort of leaves you in that kind of predicament that it's like, well, God, why don't you just fix this in me? Well, it leaves us with the same message that even was whipped up into a national campaign. Just say no. And that sounds good. And maybe in our better moments, particularly the things we're not overly tempted to, we can learn to say no to certain things. But the whole idea of just saying no, I heard somebody say this one time he was an education official and infected with AIDS as she was sharing at this convention. And she said, this is the height of the just say no area. And she said, you know what? Just say no hasn't worked since the two purest people got it from the world's highest authority. And I thought, you know what, I knew she's nafious, but my gosh, she makes a point. The two most innocent people in the garden, God saying to them, just say no to that. And that didn't work. And I think it's a good sign. And just saying no to passions like these. I said, people can pull it off for a day or two. People may pull off for a month or two or three or four, particularly after those revival things, those deep confessional kinds of, you know, wallowing, repenting. Yeah, we're going to do it for God. And it works for a while. But then when we're unsatisfied with our life in God or we're struggling with some other area, all that lust and passion is there. And the power to say no isn't. And people end up doing the very things they don't want to do. Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I think someone on the forum, I think it was, I think it was Dave on the forum. He talked about in response to the ethnicity of religion and the whole sexual brokenness, that a lot of times people who are in a place of discouragement or disappointment, that a lot of times that is a real challenging season because then you're really open to sexual temptation. It's like somehow I can get some sort of gratification or comfort from that because the other area of my life isn't working. And I'll be honest, I think there's some real truth there. There's almost a hostility to God in it because you haven't helped me, my life's not better, all the work I've been doing for you and you haven't come through. And I think that just leads to, why do I keep resisting? And then once that cavalcade starts again, it's pretty addicting. You know, something helpful early on. I mean, when I was younger and I was in, I think I was in grade school somewhere, I remember a bunch of us little boys, we went down to this little kind of clubhouse that someone had built. And I'm pretty young, it's like eight or nine years old. And all of a sudden we get into this clubhouse and there are stacks of penthouse and Playboy magazines. And I had- Can you say that on this podcast? Yeah, and I had no attraction to those, but all of a sudden it's like, little kids, they're pulling this up and you're looking at this. And I remember just the potency of some of those images. It's as if they were burned or etched in my mind. And as a little kid, I had no idea what to do with that. They were not sexually arousing, but those images didn't go away for a while. Then all of a sudden you hit your junior high years and I don't need a magazine under my own bed. You're just going like, those images were still burned and etched on my mind. And I look at just how the way, and I think the spiritual power behind some of that stuff is, is so used by the enemy to just pollute our world around. You can't even drive down the freeway without seeing some barely clad, bikini lady that is just, and you're just going like, excuse me, I have no idea what you're selling, but I do know where my eyes are being like, and you're just going like, what's with that? There's a powerful attraction there that in the right context is absolutely wonderful, but so many times it is being used in such a wrong way that it's tough. Well, a number of things converge here because certainly there is some innocent curiosity that comes from things being hidden in your little boy growing up, a little girl growing up, and you're curious. That's, that's part of it. And two, there's this titillation and arousal that the world loves to exploit for all kinds of reasons. And like you said, there's way, even with outside of advertising, there's ways people dress and purvey and attractiveness, and that is very arousing for men living in our culture. And so I think, and then there's the spiritual dynamics of there's something really twisted here that God wants, that the enemy wants to exploit. But I think the real hope of this thing is this is something that God cures. This is something that God is able to untwist in our lives and it's not through our discipline, our strength of will. That's not what untangles this. So what does? Well, you know what's so encouraging to me is here you take the Corinthian church and Paul's letters to them. The Corinthian church, I mean, if you took that just as a, as opposed to, oh, the Corinthians, you talk about a sexually, you know, just absolutely base culture in terms of what they would get into. I mean, it's horrific if you look at some of the historical background and just the actual orgies and all this other stuff that they got into. And here's Paul writing a letter to those people and saying, I presented you as a pure chaste virgin, betrothed to Christ Jesus. You're just going like, those people? Yeah, really, them? Those people? And you look at, that's the power of the gospel is that you know what? There is a restorative purity that God can bring. I don't think self-discipline does it. I don't think that just pluck your eyes out and don't look at anything is going to do it. But I do. I heard somebody say that today. The answer to Jesus saying, don't look at a woman to lust after. The answer to that is don't look at a woman. Blindness, blindness, what were the Pharisees used to put those things and you look at the goofiness of this. One of the things that was really helpful that I felt God brought just as a drop of revelation early on is he said, you know what, Brad? There are legitimate desires that you're being enticed to try to fill in illegitimate ways. You don't know what you're really hungry for. And I got to tell you, lust and greed and being a person of appetite. I mean, all of those things, those converge. There is a function that is similar in all of those. And I recognize, it's like, you know what God? Then what am I really hungry for? You're gonna have to help focus me in on what it is that I really want because my body's telling me, I want that. And my eyes are telling me, I want that. And I do think that one of the real realities is there needs to be an opening of an honesty in your own self going like, God, I'm a mess. I don't know what I want. I don't know what's gonna satisfy me. And in the absence of that, I am likely to turn to these things. And the more those habits gets established, it's like a muddy road that has deep ruts. It's like, pretty soon, it's impossible to not end up falling in that ditch. And part of it is that shame exacerbates that. Yes, it does. So some failure, then, well, I've already tried and I've already failed, so why not? Well, my whole nine yards. And God's a forgiving God. So as long as I confessing every time, I'm fine. And this one guy talked about, who called me on his road trip through Mississippi. And he was really struggling with, you know, lust and sexual brokenness and the way what do I do? And, you know, one of the things I said to him, and I don't know how you feel about this because we haven't talked about it, but I said, first of all, I want to know what you're talking about. You know, if you're talking about masturbation, I'm not too freaked about that. In fact, as I read the scripture, I can't find anywhere in scripture where it says masturbation is immoral. You can't do it and you're going to hell for doing it. There's no mention of it. The specific context of taking it that way? No. Well, yeah. And I don't find that it's there at all. So I, first of all, I want to say, you know, if that's what you're dealing with, then that's, I would just say, throttle that back. I can't imagine it was less of a temptation 2,000 years ago. And if nobody's mentioning it in scripture, nobody's mentioning it. What is mentioned is this lust. And maybe the real thing is what leads you to your self-satisfying gratification kind of. I don't want to diverge into a whole discussion about masturbation. I got to say, at the end of the day, I don't think that's the gift of sex rightly used. It leads to loneliness. Oh, absolutely. I mean, and so, you know, when I look at the dynamics, so oftentimes it's treated as such a heinous issue. It's the end all sin is how most guys respond to it instead of, no, it's not that. Yeah. And so sort of back up and put it in context and just go, you know what? Maybe that's not God's central issue in your life. That's news to most guys. You're going, it's not. I just figured I was so vile. And you're just going like, well, that's not the issue at all. It's like, you know what, that might be a fruit on a tree. That's not the root. And so I do think when I felt God began to sort of redirect my focus, especially as I sought to try to be helpful to people who are struggling here, it's like, Lord, if there are legitimate desires that we do have that you've placed in us, then you're not the grand frustrator. You didn't set up a trap. You're not just like, gotcha. You're sinful, jerky. I gave you a desire so great you can't resist it. Now you're in trouble. And here I haven't provided you a wife. So now you're stuck. I mean, I think many people are stuck in that little religious kind of just, it's a mess. It's like that. I forget the word I want to use there, but the reality is I do think God is going like, you know what, there's a longing that's inside you that, you know what? Sex doesn't really fulfill, does it? And I'd even say a healthy, wonderful, marital sex doesn't ultimately satisfy the deep, deep yearning for intimacy that really is only gonna be solved by God becoming that person and relating to me, not in a sexual way. Yeah, I'd say you're getting there. Yeah, dude. Booking that bear again. But in an intimate, relational way where you're going like, you know what? I'm not trying to pretend he's there. I know he's there. I mean, we were designed for intimate communion. And I think sex is a picture of that in the physical realm of truths that God is trying to draw me into in a relational dynamic. I think it could be expressed in the relationship I have with my wife and singles are going like, yeah, great, but I don't have a wife. I do think. For a husband. The dynamics are the fact that God didn't, he looked at Adam and it's like in the garden. It's like, it's not good that that guy's alone. Well, I think the point you're trying to make, hopefully getting the head out of the clouds a little bit here is that the sexual drive of the sexual fulfillment is something that God did give us. And blessed. And blesses. And the desire for intimate, I guess what I want to say is what lust is seeking to fulfill can't be fulfilled in sex. That lust isn't really a sexual sin. Lust is trying to make myself complete or trying to grab what God has not given. And it really isn't about sex so much as it is trying to fulfill in temporal terms the hungers God's given me spiritually. Is that what you're trying to say? Yeah. Well, I think I look at the whole sexual drive and I think it was put inside us because I think God is, we're relational creatures. I think he's trying to draw us into intimate communion and that is an aspect of it. I don't think that, okay, if I just have this super really great friendship with Jesus I'll never have any temptations. I think that's an absolute false concept. But I do think that when you look at the dynamic lust is trying to get me to try to grab and get. And I'll be honest, there's a lot of married couples wonderful Christian believers that when you look at their sex life and if you can give them the time to talk about it they're not really thrilled by it because they haven't learned the dynamic of giving themselves to each other. They're still trying to get a piece of something. They're taking something. Absolutely. I think it becomes more of a power dynamic that's being stressed out in the marriage elsewhere. If you've got that elsewhere in your marriage you'll bring it into the bedroom too. Absolutely. Or even just a self-focused, fulfill me kind of dynamic. Exactly. I'll be honest, some of the biggest turn-ons are not, gee, honey, do this to me. It's more when I kind of give myself to my wife and it's in the context of I'm trying to fulfill her. I gotta tell you, there's a bigger turn-on there at times than it is just trying to say, well, okay, I'm just gonna do something, honey. No, I agree. I think the power of a real sexual relationship is you get lost in your partner's desires. Absolutely. And when they get lost in yours, then you have a life together. And that's the opposite of lust. Lust is always self-focused, grabbing for me what I want. And gradually marriage doesn't resolve it. You still end up there. Yeah. And lust and greed, those dynamics, to common realities, they cannot be satisfied. You don't get enough. I mean, that's where it's like when lust is driving that and it's starting to look at pornography and all stuff, guess what? How many pictures is enough? How much stuff is up? It never is. No. And it's like when you look at that, it's like a drug. You've got to keep escalating it. If you found this image, you've got to find a better image. You've got to keep escalating lust because it's like a drug. What satisfied two years ago doesn't keep satisfying. And just the tangible for helping folks who are stuck in that realm? You know what? It's like something's got to be done with the inventory of images. You got to kind of take those to the Lord and somehow say, hey, Jesus, the devil's got a slide show in my brain that he can bring up at any time. And it just derails me. Help get these images out. And I've encouraged guys and girls to just one by one take those images and say, Jesus, I'm bringing this in front of you. I can't get this out. You need to spiritually do something that just kind of wipes my slate clean. So I have a chance here. Yeah, we're going to get back to the relationship again. Aren't we? Yeah. I heard one of the things said on our former about the Feminists Here with Religion podcast said this, it said, from the standpoint of relational Christianity, which is free of rules, is sex apart from a marriage certificate always wrong. Now, I reacted to that statement because I don't want people to think relational Christianity just means we're free from rules. Do it, do whatever you want. I know we've talked about not living to rules. And I think we're trying to say the same thing here. It's not self-discipline to fulfill rules. That won't get you there. But the rules of scripture, the things that God reveals about himself in scripture are the things that have been revealed to say, hey, here's the places where you wander, where you get killed, where who you really are gets diminished by sin and brokenness and twistedness. And I wouldn't, I don't like relational Christianity to be thought of as a place without rules. It's a place where we know that left to ourselves, we cannot fulfill rules. I heard a beautiful teaching this one. I agreed with an awful lot of it. Dallas Willard shared it. I got it online and I'll post the link on the blog so others can read it. Here's something he said that I really love. He said, spiritual formation is not learning to do the right things. It is becoming a different kind of person who will do the right kind of things. If you wanna keep the law, don't try to keep the law, try to become the kind of person who naturally keeps the law. And I think that kind of person is someone that's related to Jesus, who's getting the fulfillment for all of my life from him. That displaces those other kinds of things. He was even talking about Dallas Willard in this lesson, that the whole idea of pornography and lust and looking at images and things of women. When God gives you such a view of women, that you realize how debasing and devaluing that is to the people who are involved in that thing, it'll change the titillation in the image. Suddenly you're not seeing that as just sexually enticing, but you're seeing another broken life, another degraded person. And that takes the sting out of the powerfulness of that image. Yeah, you know what I mean? I don't think the law has the power to yield us righteous. You know, it's like, you look at that and it's like, don't think of the green elephant. Well, you know what the way our brain works? Is I have to come up with the concept of a green elephant and then try to take that out of my brain. Doesn't work too late. Gotcha. Now there's green elephants all over the world right now as we're sitting here. And it's like, when you look at that, it's like, oh, don't think of naked women. It's like, well, guess what? I mean, to even kind of process that language in my brain, I'm already stuck. And so it's like, you know, I love, where I think it's, Paul talks about, you know, if anything is pure, righteous, holy, think of these things. You know, it's like the issue is not, gee, don't think about bad stuff. It's, you know what? You know what's gonna dislodge that? It's a greater vision, a greater understanding, a greater insight. You know, it's like, when those things become more attractive, the enemy doesn't have much power. I want it to one wonderful story. And when I was still in college, just before I was married, and this was like the good news that, you know what? There is freedom that Jesus can work. For a season of time, I just, I was, I was hooked by pornographic images. And you're just going like, okay, for a good Christian little boy who's not trying to sin, that's not helpful. Little boy, you're in college now. Well, I felt like such a dimwit. It's just like, I can't get free. And it was like, you know, I finally just took all of my images of all this stuff in my brain. And I was just like, God, I don't have to have the magazines. They're all stuck in my mind. Help me, transact these. You know what? One by one, he would clear those things. And so I don't have the images. And when I recognized it so often times, that's looking at, and for me, it was women. It was looking, I don't know why they recognize in today's world, it's not really all of the issue. And looking at it, it's like, that's degrading someone that Jesus has created into a thing, a possession, a something as opposed to a person. And I remember standing on the beach and here's this beautiful young lady in a thong. All right? That's where both her buttocks were hanging out. I don't need the imagery here. Bottom line. And she is a beautiful lady. And you got about 20 guys on her backside, all just staring. And I'm sitting here going like, okay, I think I'm gonna move to her front side. And what was wonderful? Which holds more temptation for some people. Yeah, true, truly, but at least it had more covering. I hear it. And I sat there and I was like, I looked at these guys and I just sat there going, gosh, my heart went out to that girl who had no idea or maybe she did, but would obviously not have a great deep satisfaction that she has just been Googled up and down. And there's no depth here. There's no value. There's no, gee, you're a beautiful person. And I look at that and it's like, when I walked around to the front and I looked at her, it's like, you know what? There was just a moment where our eyes connected. And what was so great for me is I would, you know what? I'm no longer captured by what used to capture me. I was feeling in that moment, freedom, that I didn't discipline myself to. I just realized I don't want to degrade that person into something that she's not. She's more valuable as a person. And what was so fantastic for me as a, you know, young man full of testosterone is, you know what, Jesus can actually bring a freedom. And it thrilled me because in an area of my life that I couldn't find freedom, he had birthed something that just changed the way I saw stuff. But there's a lot of people like the man who wrote us this letter we started with who've tried this for 19 years, who've prayed those kinds of prayers intensely, deeply and has found that nothing has moved and consequently is greatly disillusioned by it. And what do we say to people like that? To the man in the hotel room who's another night, another bad movie, another episode of self-gratification. What do we say to those kind of people who've prayed those prayers, who've asked God to make that kind of change and it hasn't happened yet? I don't have an easy fix. And so I'm not gonna just toss up, well, here's a Bible verse that does it. Good. I can say that the honest, brokenhearted cry of an individual who's wanting freedom does not go unheard. I, you know, without knowing the specifics of what's going on, I don't know specifically what to suggest to an individual other than, you know what, you can't fix yourself. It isn't just a discipline thing and the pure brokenhearted cry for deliverance is not going to be unanswered by God. God will meet you. But perhaps the sex stuff isn't the primary core. Perhaps that isn't. Perhaps you're slashing it leaves on a tree and there's something deeper inside that God's wanted to deal with. I think that's often true. I think it's often true that our perspective for most people is the sexual problems in my life are the biggest thing God has to deal with before I can grow on. Every guy I try- As if that's the core. Every tribe got to help in discipleship. You know, the big thing if they get down to the honest moment is I've gotta get free of masturbation and then I'll be able to grow on in Christ. And my answer is always, you will never get free of it until you grow on in Christ. Until God is bigger than your sexual problems. The man in the hotel room, I keep trying to get back to the story. When we talked about, and before I get lots of letters from women, let me say this, I don't think masturbation is an escape for men in a marriage to resolve their sexual appetite apart from their wife at all. I know, I think you said it's an aberration of that thing. But when I said to him, listen, I wouldn't sweat that part of it. Yeah, is it something God wants to move in time? I think it is. But when you go into a hotel room every night committed not to masturbate, you almost invariably will. Just what you said. Yeah, it's the green elephant. It's not gonna work. You invariably will do it. And when you just say, you know what? Even if I do tonight, I'm gonna be right there with God and say, God, look what I've done. This is what I wanna be free from and invite God into those moment. Now that's just anus. People just say, you can't do that. God's pure, God's holy. Yeah, you can't invite God into that moment. He called me the next day and said, you know what, last night in the hotel room was so incredibly different. Cause I didn't go in there with all this fear and angst. He said it wasn't even a temptation to watch a movie. It wasn't even, he said I had the freest night in the world because I wasn't there trying not to do something. I was there trying to say, Jesus, how do I follow you tonight and what do you wanna be part of this evening with me? And I think that's what I wanna say to people. And the people who have tried for 19 years and nothing's worked, one of the things I would say is, you know, performance isn't gonna do it. Yeah. And just begging in prayer isn't going to do it. If it does it, great. If your desperation before the altar in prayer moves something like this in your life as it has for me and a lot of other people, great. But if it hasn't, a lot of things move in our life because we find somebody to share it with who will, and we can just flat ask him, how do I learn to live like Jesus here? And I like what Dallas Willerbry says, Nylon, how do I keep the rule? But how do I have a relationship with Jesus that will in time displace this thing that is gnawing at my heart? And that's where I wanna encourage you guys. Don't think, yeah, as soon as I get all the sexuality fixed, then I can have the relationship with God that I want. I wanna say, no, no, I have that relationship today in the middle of your brokenness. In the middle of that struggle, God doesn't love you any less. He isn't gonna like, well, I'll relate to you when you stop doing that. Yeah. But I also wanna say in the same breath, to those whose sexual brokenness victimizes others. You know, if you're a child molester, if you're a spouse abuser, if you're, you cannot just say, well, I hope God heals that in time. You gotta get that in front of somebody, take it seriously. When you damage another life sexually, because you can't let God work there, that is something where you seriously go to somebody. Somebody wrote us about, oh, what about a child molester? Five years molesting his daughter and not ever being honest about it happening. First of all, if I find out about it, I'm gonna report it. I'll be honest with you. If you're molesting your kid and you're not gonna walk free of it tomorrow, I'm gonna report if I have to, because I think it is so serious that, and maybe that's what Jesus gets to about, about not offending one of these little ones. You're better off in jail where you can't do it than to keep doing it every day and put your sexual brokenness on another life that's gonna damage them for a long, long time until God deals with it. And I, so I wanna be emphatic about it. I wanna say, hey, you know what? Tag and sex and it just happens, don't sweat it. I mean, we're not saying that. It's very serious. God's word makes it significant. But the shame that we attach to this and the inability to talk about it, the fact that you and I are having this conversation, which is so rare in, I've had very few of these conversations with other brothers in this journey, other than in a counseling context. Not just people sitting around saying, hey, this is something we all struggle with. But until we have those kinds of conversations, I don't think things are gonna change in our life. Oftentimes, if we can't knock it in the head in our own relationship, and I think most of us will not knock it in the head alone. It's gonna take a conversation with another brother and moving to a person. You look at Alcoholics Anonymous and I don't know everything about AA and I don't know that the 12 step program is the solution for everything. But the one thing that's pretty amazing is the fact that you know what? There's an invitation to honesty amongst other fellow broken people and they don't send the people off to go fix themselves. You know what? They're set in a relationship and they're set in a context of not just accountability but where there's help that you know what? When you're struggling, reach out to someone. I mean, there's some phenomenal things. And to me, they're taking their brokenness seriously. They're not just, well, we'll talk about something else and they're there because they're alcoholic or sexual addictions or narcotics but people are taking the bondage seriously and they're taking a journey together and the dependence on something outside themselves, someone outside themselves. And I think those are all positive things. Well, I remember, I read a book called Arrows Defiled by I think a guy named John White and it's years ago. I don't even, I doubt it's in print anymore but I remember in a part of it, he talked about Jesus up hanging on the cross and he talked about the fact that you know what? Most of the art is not right at all. He was hanging their butt naked, okay? And most of us are horrified at the thought I can't picture that, that'd be wrong. You know what I mean? And it's like, there was a reason Jesus hung there, naked is because you know what? Guess what? He understands the reality of where we're at and he died so that he could bring healing to all of that. It's like that little area of my life isn't closed and you can't see it. It's like, guess what? Invite the light into that area and he can start to change stuff. And I think one thing I found with a lot of folks that have been stuck in sexual sin, stuck for years is, and this is not true of everybody, but a lot of the ones I know, they're still trying to fix themselves. And it's like, you know what? You can't. And I sort of feel like the whole performance dynamic, the shame trap, everything that gets stuck for a lot of people, there has to come a breaking and almost like, there's almost like a pride at elements that you're just like, guess what? Until you recognize the brokenness and you fall on the rock that it's like, I can't fix this. There's a humility that's birthed there that I find Jesus really meets in response. He dwells with the humble and the broken. Not the fixed, not that I got it. Jesus, I'm done now. I can hang out with you. But to really welcome God in where it's like, you know what? Let him set the agenda. Let him set the issues that he wants to raise. Let him just perhaps love you. It's not just Jesus doesn't come into my life just to fix things. Well, he fixes things by the loving. I think that's- You know, it's like when you almost know the love and taste that, my gosh, that conquers a thousand things. I can't fix. Yep. Yep. I'm sure we'll be back here again and again. This is a topic that I think, and you may have some other comments or questions to throw at us. And if you do- Please do. On the forum, the podcast, email to us. And we'll take some very specific questions on this topic. And I think what's clear, Brad, and I don't have all the answers to this, but we do understand the struggle. We've been through it ourselves. We've been through it with other people. And this is certainly an area that Jesus wants to make part of our growing freedom and life of relationship in him. Thanks for traveling with us today on The God Journey. If you'd like to join the conversation, we'd appreciate your comments or your questions by email or at our website, thegodjourney.com. Stop by today and join the conversation.