A Woman’s Identity - Part 2 — http://thegodjourney.com/wordpress/2006/08/18/a-womans-identity-part-2/

It's now time to think outside the box of what we've always known. I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down to Claire's the sovereign Lord. I think that's a profound turning point in somebody's relationship with God. And our hope in starting this was that this would become an ever-expanding conversation. Just two real guys talking about life. That's a nice tagline. I'm Wayne Jacobson. And I'm Brad Cummings. And welcome to another edition of The God Journey. Well, we're back and this is not good. This is great. I got Sarah right here. We've got a whole conspiracy afoot. Wayne is nervous. He's actually sitting here nervous because Sarah is here to tell the truth. Oh, no, she's not. She's here to talk about identity. You can feel free to just throw in anything that you like. Truth comes later. We have a whole bunch of questions about Wayne. They want to know a whole lot about you. I wish we could answer questions from the previous podcast, but we just we just taped it a half a minute ago. So the one with Kelly. So now we're going to bring Sarah in and do a little talk and run these back to back while I'm running off to Minnesota. And we're trying to get rid of the killer bees again that have returned to our house. So I don't know what that's about. Came home from a weekend of being gone and it's 100 dead bees in the house. So that doesn't sound good. At least they're dead. Well, yeah. But that's a good thing. The live ones are still going in and out and I don't know how a hundred bees got in the house. That's a little unnerving. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm glad they weren't buzzing around. You're right. So now we've got Sarah buzzing around. Hi, darling. Hi. How are you? Doing good. So glad to have you here. Brad's on. I'm sitting on her side. I know. They're way across the table. That's so Sarah couldn't take a swing. We're going to conspire with some of the answers. Conspire away. I have no fear. Well, you got a whole lot of wisdom. You've lived with this man for how many years? 31. And you're going to do more? Of course. Okay. He renewed my contract, didn't you? Yeah. He renewed your contract. That's good. He does that every year. This was fun. This has got to be on the podcast. When you first met with him, he was a Christian. That's not why she's here. I was surprised. You were surprised. I was surprised. What are you surprised? Because he was totally being a clown. It was a homecoming banquet. He was, we were not dating that point in time. He was sitting across the table and he was playing with the candle. He kind of like fidgeting while he was bored with his date or whomever it was. Okay. And he spilled some. The date was boring. That's true. So was the banquet. Sarah was the only hot thing at the table. And he spilled some red candle wax and then he acted as if and then he took a knife and he acted as if he stabbed himself and he was bleeding and then you know it just went downhill from there. So and then I found out that he was Christian and also that he got straight A's and that was even more of shocker because Christians, they don't have brains. What do you mean by that? And they don't have fun. That's the truth. Christians don't have fun. They can't get A's. This was not my problem. This was her limited view of what a believer looks like. My God. Well you know if someone's getting all straight A's, you tend to think that they're going to be a little bit more serious or you know, he just wasn't acting. The extra brain power he's not using, right? Right way. But look who got the girl. Look who got the girl. I did. No, not yours. I got mine. And she was in her own little beauty pageant, weren't you? Yeah. We don't want to go there. Ohio's Miss Junior Miss or some crazy thing. Yeah, there you go. We both married above ourselves. I think it's the point. Yes, I think God has been gracious to both of us. Yep. Not being... I'm not sure what Kelly or Sarah did that got hooked up with us. We're not about performance or anything. This is about grace. Sarah, Sarah's just never had it so good. That's how I'm seeing it. No comment. If you could have seen the smirk on her face that would have been good. Oh well, but we're going to erase the smirk. So there we go. So you heard the last podcast because you were listening in with Kelly here and anything you felt like you would like to have said that we didn't get to as we were talking about having young kids and being a mommy and dealing with all that stuff? Because your life's a bit different now. You haven't got young kids around except for that granddaughter. Yeah, it's a beautiful granddaughter. No, she said a large part of what was going on. I know in people, if anybody is in ministry as far as you're talking about when husbands helping, thinking that you did help, and you were really pretty good in them. Thank you. I feel affirmed. The only part that was harder was when in ministry and if anybody's out there in ministry, you're leading. You guys were up there leading and then. That would mean vocational employment, right? Well, and even if husbands are elders or the leaders and certain ones and they're being the point person, they're having to take worship or at that point in time when there was any kind of function going on with the church, there was not a lot of help. It was hard because if they were having a problem, we were having a meeting in our group and you were leading, I didn't want to lead. You just have to take care of the kids. Take care of the kids. There was a lot of times, as far as that, in people with young moms or if they're a couple in church or involved in home groups or whatever or things like that, it's just something to be aware of. What kind of impact does that have on your sense of who you are or sense of purpose and identity when you're always put in sort of that subordinate behind-the-scenes role? Does that do anything? Did that do anything to you? Created probably some frustration and not really at him, it was just no one there to help and feeling that, and I was not one to ask. I was not good at that. Because I wasn't so healthy about this, Brad. I officeed in my home for the most part and I really, I've got this little false integrity issue about wanting to work eight to five, even if I'm out four nights a week so I wasn't hanging back in the morning helping out. I was still, you know, eight to five in it plus all the meetings at night because I wanted to not ask others to do who were working eight to five jobs and then being out for leadership meetings or whatever to be any different than I was doing myself. Disfunctional, all in the name of Jesus. I tell you what, it wasn't good, but so when Sarah really did carry an incredible load with our two kids and then as the kids got older she added to that where her parents living with us, her dad having debilitated with Parkinson's for some odd 40 odd years of having that disease and then her mom getting cancer and dying, so it's got a pretty full platter particularly as the kids got toward the age of your older kids now is when that kind of started for her. But I didn't ask for help. I wouldn't, I mean, I was, if it got to the point where I said, you know, here she's yours and usually love Julie dearly, but I mean she was a strong kid and you know there were a few times until she got baptized we had our moments and I just with her and I we could go round and round. Now I'd be for infant baptism actually. What is that? Is it an act of deliverance? I don't know what just changed for her. How long did you keep her under? Long enough. And it just, you know, it would not Andy so much because Andy was really... I never got handed Andy at night saying he's yours, but yeah. And because Wayne and Julie are a lot alike and he could understand her and I would get frustrated and Andy and I are a lot alike. We love you Julie, we love you. It got to and it wasn't a lot. I mean it's not like every week it was a weekly thing, but there were a few times where I was to my end with her and it was just more letting down. It's the consistency. Mom and dads, you just got to, whatever you do, you just got to be consistent with them together because they will play each other, you know, you guys against each other and so, you know, being consistent all day long, getting up, it just got worrying. And it's just when I gave him, you know, he said, gave her to him. I just, you know, he knew at that point in time. I was at my end because I didn't really ask a lot for help. I think one of the things we did well at that time was whenever one was getting back sassed by the child, the other parent would swoop in and handle it. So you weren't having to defend yourself. So if the kids were given Sarah hard time, I jumped in and took over. If they're giving me a hard time about something, Sarah would jump in and say, you don't talk to your dad that way. And I think we did that part really, really well. We really backed each other. That's fantastic. What happens with your sense of identity? I mean, you've gone through the stage of, you know, before you were married, then you were married, then you have kids and your kids are raised and now they're gone. What happens to the whole sense of who you are? I mean, that's a big, huge question. You can talk for an hour. Yeah, I'm scared here. What happens? I think I'm a little different and I don't even think I really found my identity until probably about 14 years ago or 12 years ago, something like recently. And it was through, because growing up, I did things well. I was placed in positions saying that, you know, you make a good wife and I was a doorman. My dad and I were a lot alike. I did what other people, what I did well and what they wanted me to do, from time growing up to going, then leaving home, going to school. After a while, it's gotten to be a joke, but my identity, I mean, I went from being into college and after we met our second semester there and after a while, by the time junior senior year, you know, my identity was then Wayne's girl. And then I got married and then I was Wayne's wife. And then, you know, then I'm Julie and mom, Andy's mom. And so my whole identity was not, was just in, you know. It was never Sarah. No, and it wasn't in Sarah until finally going through it like I talked about in the previous podcast about the whole transformation that happened through caring for my parents and the whole thing when we left the church. And then it was just totally switched around to where then I found my identity. So a lot of women, you know, are basically different. I did what I did. I did it very well. I could do it, but I was inside having no identity, raising my kids. I could do things well, but I had no confidence. And I didn't even think I had a lot of friends. I was, it was a very, I felt very lonely. Many, many times I was crying to Wayne, didn't have friends and didn't know how to be a friend. I think part of that too was that she had always projected the image of being the perfect wife, the perfect mother, her house immaculate, the gardens immaculate, the kids always immaculate well-behaved. She predicted such an image of hard work because that's what she was really trying not to project the image. She really wanted good kids and nice, clean home and she wanted all that. But people just didn't know how to get close to her because I mean she wasn't a real person to them either. She didn't have needs. There was no way to crawl into that life. And I think that was part of it too. So I mean my identity came probably about 12 years ago. I mean, but growing up, I mean I loved being a mom. I loved raising the kids, being with the kids. We had a lot of good times. There was a lot of hard things that were through that. And the playfulness right before bedtime, that was a good thing, right? No. No, no, no. You're winding the kids up, you know. That's just, you know, but... I get yelled at to this day with my granddaughter. What are you doing? We're going to bed. I don't know why kids are so much fun right before bedtime. That's a guy thing, you know. But then if you wind them up, then I think... Take care of them. But then you guys should be the ones who take care of them when they're crying and not going to sleep then. Absolutely. I agree with that. I agree. I agree. So I don't know if I even went through your question, but I mean, I had... Use the word doormat, though. Use it a little bit ago. Use it a lot when you talk about your life back then. You just, you felt like a doormat. You just did what everybody wanted. Is that because of the traditional mindset that surrounds what? I mean, is that the environment that you grew up in? Or is that... A large part of it. Was the environment growing up in... And my parents did the best they knew at that point in time. But I grew up in a small rural town in Midwest and I didn't want to be a pastor's wife. And but... Oops. I know. Oops. You know, because... Thank God she's not today. Take off your hat. I'm wearing my hat. She was a prophet back there. She just had 20 years of torment before she got to live it. But I was a hard worker. I loved doing things. I mean, I did a lot of things, gardening and sewing and things with the kids. And house decorating, which she sure does today. She loves that stuff. And so I did a lot of things I loved, but I didn't realize until a few years ago that I was a doormat. I mean, I just knew I didn't have any confidence. I mean, I hated women's retreats. That's a whole nother discussion. But I mean, you know, because I could never, you know, there was nothing in me I felt that I had to give except I felt comfortable as a mom. Now, everybody else around, you know, the kids, I felt comfortable with them. Sure. And confident. Do you think there is, because it seemed like a lot of the forum things surrounded on how easy it is for women to lose their identity and how so oftentimes even like within the church structure or the religious mindset, there's almost a subordinating of women. And yet, you know, here's Jesus, the true liberator of women. It's just, do you think that gets reinforced? You mean during motherhood? Just for women in general. Well, just women in general. I mean, Wayne and I, thankfully, are not women. That's really kind of why, you know, I think some of the desire to have you and Kelly on is more like, well, as a woman, are those stereotypes, do they help you lose your identity or what's going on there? I think in the church, depending in sometimes this whole submission type of teaching that comes along and I think that hurts a woman trying to seek her identity if she's not, you know, have identity. A lot of women, you know, probably have, you know, no problems with her identity. I've come to realize, though, that the identity is, my identity is not in, which I always thought was what you were, what you did. It's not being a mom, being a wife. That I am, but my identity is not in that and it's not in my job. We were talking about it yesterday coming down and it's just, I love, I'm a counselor in high school and people ask what you do and I'm a counselor, but I love it and I, but my identity is not in that. I think my identity, and Wayne was asking, you know, about this and I just thought, you know, my, what I love to do is just loving people whoever the law brings by each day. I mean, it can be the kids who I'm helping, trying to get them to graduate, trying to find other, or it can be a parent on the phone who's at their wits and with their kids. Or a daughter at the wits and with her kids. A co-worker. I mean, it can be if you're, you know, if you're not in the workforce world, it could be where you're shopping. You know, you strike up a conversation, you go there frequently and you get to know them and talk to them and that happened when I was carrying from my dad and going to Vaughn's and his checker and he had two parents who had been with Parkinson's and talking about that. I mean, so it's just passing through, you know, the day and trying, touching lives each person that you're with. And people may not know just to fill in the back story here, if they haven't listened to the previous podcast, but when we got married, Sarah didn't work outside the home. She was, we were three years without kids and she was part of the ministry kinds of expectations for pastors' wives to throw showers and be at meetings and things like that. And then for 20 years, she stayed home and raised our kids took care of her parents. And this, being a high school counselor, this is her second year being a high school counselor, she went back at, I don't know, 46, 47 to work on her master's degree and have a whole another life past her kids now. This is all new for Sarah. What's the impetus for that? I mean, was it just all of a sudden discovering that you, you had something that you wanted to do? It came after mom had passed away a while before dad and dad had passed away in 99. And then I was going to a grief counseling, getting some support group to help go through the whole process. And after that, realizing, you know, caring for parents and that they're kind of like taking care of parents. It's like taking care of kids. They become, they become a child. You're, you know, I was 24 seven taking care of them. And when all of that is gone, kids are gone. We've moved. I mean, you just, and the Lord had been doing some stuff in my life at that point in time. There was a void and I, I did not know who I was at that point in time. I didn't know really what I like to do. I know what I could do. I didn't know if I liked to do it. And so there's this big void in it. So it was trying to build that up again. And I had gone to grief group and then I got in the job and somebody there had just told me about this job opened up in high school and I applied for it and got it and then saw that I liked it and that's the first time going full time. Wayne kind of struggled at that point in time for me going back full time. Now he kind of likes it. And I'm go to work. Why are you laughing? This is a whole other issue. That's a whole other issue. And then I got there and then I got my bachelors, but that was like many, many years before they were 20 plus. And a couple people said, you know, you'd be a good high school counselor, which required me to go get a master's and credential. I mean, Sarah didn't even like youth when I was a youth pastor. I mean, for her to be working with kids now is such a shock to me. I don't know how much of a shock it is to her, but she absolutely loves it. I get e-mail from when I'm on the road saying, can you believe they pay me for this after she told me some story that's happened that day. So then I, you know, went to work and I don't know, it's just one of those things, you know, God didn't just come down and say, you know, you need those to do this. I mean, nudges and it's just one thing builds upon another and it's a journey. And here I was, I applied and to, you know, New University was in the program, the following fall and working full time, going to school full time and grad school and took about three years and just slowly working through things and it's a process. So I forget where I was going, but I don't know what the question was, but I'm sure you can have more questions. In terms of, it sounds like so much of your life, you were in the primary role of a caregiver and you kind of got absorbed in that function. Oh yeah, in caregiver for, I mean it was taking care of the kids and finally when the kids were at a point where they were in middle school I could have gotten a job then mom and dad got sick and I had two terminally ill parents there and cared for them probably nine, 10 years and so it was caring, caregiving and that's a lot of laying down your life and that's a long season of time. I mean you don't go into that and we felt that was a decision we made but it was a cost to our family too. It was a cost during the time. So there's a lot of caregiving in that whole process but it was a very learning time, laying down time. Sacrifice and servanthood are great things but if it comes at the expense of losing who you are then it's not so good and how did you get to the place where you're going like okay it's not being selfish to realize I have a void in here and I've got to take care of Sarah. Everyone was gone first when that happened. That's what you finally woke up to that once there wasn't... Through the process of taking care of them it was a stripping away and that's the realization where I was finding that I had lights were coming on that I was being a doormat and learning and realizing and then once everybody was gone kids were gone to school, dad, mom were dead by that time it was a big void and filling that up and that's where always before I knew I could do certain things and I guess I placed my identity in what I did and I did it well and when you take that away I could still do that well but it was my identity wasn't in that. I mean I think women it's hard because we do things some women do things well or we do it so much and we think that's our job and it's not... I had to come to the realization I was the daughter of God and then but I also was a mom and I was a wife I was grandmother now but the wife and mom was not who I was and I was a daughter and I was trying to... him bringing those things but it was a very painful time it was very, very hard for the first year, year and a half to tell people no to tell this is about me because going back to school was totally about me Wayne had to start cooking all his dinner I've been cooking all my life We had done a lot of that together but I mean he didn't cook I mean I went from work I'm still nine or ten o'clock at night Did you resist at first? I was gone on weekends I asked did you resist that at first? Oh yeah Oh certainly I mean I loved having Sarah Holman all the things that she does and all that she was a part of in our life and sharing this journey and sharing a lot of the life stream bridge builder thing she was the business manager for all that so we were partnered in all of those things and her beginning to find a new avenue of God's leading that was not the same as that and I think part of my old kind of thinking you know the say this now would get me slapped but I'm far enough away probably won't but the whole idea is scripturally of the wife being the helpmate and at this point in our life she would be traveling with me doing things that I'm doing more together and then realizing that wasn't her calling that wasn't what she felt called to do and really it very much was it has not become that it's become a great blessing and the long run of things I mean I love what I see God having shaped in her going through all that but I didn't really want her back in school and you know doing all the degree stuff again and papers every weekend I mean just that whole thing was like wow that's a threat to us and time we'd have together but it didn't turn out to be it was more my fear than the reality even 60's they're going back to school or they're doing some new thing that they love to do I just love to hear women trying new things to be able to find out something's coming alive something's awakening to have life beyond the kids I think you've we've talked about this before because we talked to people at times that mothers and the kids go to college they're just devastated their whole life is just there's nothing they keep trying to live their lives to their children are grown and gone we're not thinking that's the best way to go about it no I mean it's hard because we have these kids that we feel we have created but really they are gods they're on loan to us to take care of and then we have to release them 18 their independence you know 16 18 years come along that's the natural part you know to cause all that friction that goes on and independence and that's normal to get them to go and stand on their own to go out and you know it's sad and I've seen a lot of women and they try to hold on to them and bring them in and then you know you know if let them be and releasing them is a hard thing and it starts when you start putting them in you know you babysitter or if you're in the church you know it's a nursery you know let them go little things because you know as they grow up it's constantly letting go of them and letting them become adults and releasing them and going and letting them you know make decisions what's good for them and not try and hold on to them because you try and hold on to them you're going to suffocate them and you want to nourish a relationship because the relationship does change you know you become friends you're still maybe mother, daughter, mother, son but there is the relationship can change and having a life beyond that having other things that you're involved in so you're not sitting around manipulating your kids lives forever or trying to live vicariously through them one of the things that we kept reminding ourselves we were letting go of our teenager to the college is how much fun Sarah and I had when we started a new life together that's really what you were a kid for what you grew up for so Sarah and I could go away and start a new life together and then we got to as much as we valued that for what we'd experienced in it we really valued that for our kids so man we're around our Julia and Andy both live nearby we're involved in their lives but we're not always hunting them down and trying to you know get them to do what we want them to do or figure out the holidays six months in advance so we make sure we get our time with them we get plenty of time with our kids and we just eat it up when we do we all have something God's asked us to do in the earth other than raise kids other than find our identity there has been really really good and that may not be as you know finding a paid position I mean I don't think women you know after kids are gone or whatever you know you need to get a job and do things I mean it can be volunteering it can be there's so many different things out there that women can do and a lot of people are still having older parents to handle I mean I had lost mine in an earlier age so I'm kind of past that versus I mean a lot of people are still you know having at this point in time when you're in your fifties you still have parents around and doing things and so it's not like women need to go out and you know find a job get a degree I mean it's not that that's just what you might do yeah I mean I'm not I mean I am a counselor but that my identity is not in that I find more my identity I love it but my identity is in him and that's what I happen to be doing but it's you know it's just loving and living and following him what he has so it's not necessarily seeking out you know trying to find something but you know try different things and I thought it was going to go into interior decorating I didn't like that and so then went and became a career center tech and then found out that was another step to go to you know a counselor and and the world is so so much to offer to people and people and each person has a lot to offer I think what underlies a lot of this identity because I don't know it's about being what we're called or what we vocationally do I think what underlies a lot of that is the sense of purpose you know why get up in the morning and why my life's on the planet and how God uses me to touch other people and I find that for you know where this says doing interpersonally or some kids who wasn't going to graduate ends up graduating because Sarah was a cheerleader for them getting them through the last few months of high school life and and that whole comment and I can't believe they pay me for this I think people who struggle in the mundane things of life honestly don't have a sense of God's purpose just in their days and their lives and doesn't always mean that's a specific thing I do or in the old language a calling I have but that I wake up in the morning in God's purpose and I think when we're talking about identity I think most people are really grappling for that do do I have a sense of purpose I think Paul out life visions to talks about we're all that there's good works prepared in advance for us to do it's not you know good works for God but it means there's a way I reflect to God on this planet that no one else does and when I live in the reality of that I mean life is just a joy and it's full even in the tough times and when we lose sight of the purpose for which God has us here men or women I think life becomes a struggle if it's just about maintaining life and you know jobs and homes and responsibilities and kids if life's just that I think it will be very empty and people will wrestle with their identity and purpose but there's a sense of why God's making how God's making himself known through us in the world to me that makes all the difference in the world I can wake up to that kind of a day no matter what I'm doing even if it's concrete I guess but it's interesting because I think what I hear out of a lot of what you've been saying is you had to first awaken to the fact that your identity was not in what you did it was more the fact almost in receiving a sense of I am someone who's loved by God it's like if that's not central and that's not first and that's not discovered as revelation of going like wait a minute that's the core of who I am then you can add purpose and it's fantastic but a lot of people they still haven't settled the fact that wait a minute my identity is not in this grand purpose I have it's more in the fact that it's first foremost in relationship with a loving heavenly father that says I'm his that would be a very painful thing to realize too all that was came with a lot of pain and then I had built up well and it was interesting because during that time I would wake up in the middle of the night with things that I mean dreams and I don't have a lot of dreams but I remember there was it wasn't every night that God was is an ultimate counselor and he will bring you along in this journey and it's always nice to have someone a friend and a lot of times you know maybe a husband is not always a good competent in this process someone you know who you really respect and can really feel safe and sharing with sometimes is a good resource but I would wake up with things that I thought I were not problems but they were issues from my childhood dreams about my grandpa and some other things that had things that had happened and dealing with that and it was just it was amazing God just over several years was just taking me and through a lot of things and to get me to that place and like I said it was over many years I didn't wake up and have a big lightning bolt and all of a sudden things changed and it was different but it's a process it's a process finding out who you are and we change too I mean you do something for maybe a year or two or even not that long and then it's different and God has something else for you to do it's a journey it's a process one of the things you talked about yesterday with that the whole dying to other people's expectations about you can you talk about that a little bit because I think that's that was a big part of this for you well dying to the I mean I and that was where I was learning to say no and I can remember how hard it was for a few three times to say no to people and the whole displeasing others Oh it was huge it took me a few days to get up the courage to tell someone no and even Wayne and it yeah me don't mean no no Wayne no yeah see it's pretty easy now and then to try and find I mean because I did not have a good grasp on understanding control I would let other people control me and usually it was controlled by guilt enough shame on me to or make me feel bad to do something and those are effective manipulators aren't they absolutely use that a few times myself I mean when I first started this I would you know I would see that maybe a few weeks down the road and then I would see it a few then it got to where you know I could maybe see it a few days and then to the next you know the day after someone did something and then finally you know I was starting to see that closer but it was you know dying to that and letting that down and saying no to people but realizing it was for my self preservation because in caregiving and taking care of kids moms we put everybody else's needs first yeah how did you change that because I don't even think I mean it's great that here you are on the back side of all this but what do you say to moms in the midst of it to use a little wisdom and go like for young moms maybe discover this a little sooner what would help that well I mean you do with little kids I mean you have to and a lot of that and then when they get older you have to realize well you know you need to wait and you teach kids but when you know and then you come to parents and when they're dying you have to lay that down you gotta lay I mean certain things and experiences you're going through you do have to lay what's down for you but it was hard and it was people telling me I had a few handful people who were always telling me it's okay for you to say no and it's okay for Sarah to be taking care of her because if I didn't take care of me I was killing myself here's how one doctor put it this disease referring to her dad's Parkinson's disease this disease has already killed two people don't make it three because you could so serve that to the point of your own demise which is what we talked about Kelly last week about even motherhood if you don't take time for you then you don't become even good at being a caregiver or a mother or whatever Kelly and I we were talking about a little bit of this and she brought the whole issue like on planes how the instructions that you know what if there's a loss in cabin pressure you're not supposed to put the mask on yourself first before you go and try to help somebody else and yet so often times as simple as that is that is not how most people live their lives a lot of times some people put the mask on themselves and they never help anybody else but joy is Jesus others and then yourself I mean that's that acronym that sets us all up thinking as sick as that is I think and yet that can be incredibly unhealthy all in the name of serving a good idea but what with laying down people's expectations and then taking care of myself for myself it I mean it was a hard decision and it was several years that went on and I it was a struggle at times but there are especially there's times in your lives where you have to take care of yourself pull away or you know run or hide with friends who can help support you with prayer and encouragement because this comes with a lot of encouragement now you might find it in your spouse but you may not find it in your spouse because sometimes they might be I mean there was you know sometimes it needs to be outside of that whole relationship to get an outside perspective to get help that you and Wayne don't seem to struggle with this at least as much as I know you guys but some couples there's like a vying of competition for dominance or for their sense of who they are in the marriage you guys don't seem to have that you seem to have a celebrated sense of you're you and Sarah's not you she's Sarah talk about that a little bit because I mean you see that dynamic in other relationships where there's that competitive thing well we used to marriage things we did we used to joke about we never fight because it takes two to fight and only one of us is willing to fight and that was me and for 20 years of this marriage I mean Sarah even when I was really trying to get what do you really think about this what do you want what do you see God doing she would answer me but she was answering me by what she thought I wanted her to say and even when I thought she was doing this and then I don't want what you think I want I want to know what you're really thinking and I want to think that her opinion if it differed from mine would matter now I never wanted her to be that way and I tried to encourage her not to be but that's just part of the dynamic she grew up in as that began switching about 12 years ago one of the things that God put on my heart was you know Sarah spent 25 years chasing the things that are on your heart and I pretty much live the things God's put on my heart every day and she's the biggest reason why I've had the freedom to do that and we've followed a journey that's been interesting in lots of ways and she's been a great sport to come along and before all this started happening in Sarah one of the things that Holy Spirit clued me into was you're going to spend some time now chasing the vision of Sarah's heart so I tell you I think maybe how's that working you I don't imagine you just to be like oh great and I had nothing to do with that I didn't ask for that now God's been torturing me for years it all started with that why don't you trust me and if people have heard the transition series they know what that means that was two years of hell because I didn't because God didn't at all treat my reputation the way I thought he would so when he whispered something to me like growing conviction over time I didn't hear a voice one morning there's this growing thing about Sarah something's happening in Sarah and it's time for me to and I think probably now this is what a real husband is the idea of the wife being the help make to the husband I think now what real spiritual is whether it's in a home whether it's in the family in the body of Christ I think it's helping other people realize their potential and gift thing it's not about me it's not about my calling and I've spent 20 years 20 probably more than that it was all about me my calling how I could do what God called me to do and my whole life lived around that and I asked other people to serve that and it's been the last 12-14 years same time frame as Sarah is talking about this transition where I really have more joy right now in helping others do what God's called them to do and help others people find a way to do and I learned that I think was Sarah I mean we just really I wanted to see that happen for so much and yeah it was threatening to me it changed our relationship Sarah wasn't always there at night like she had always been for 25 years of marriage but what this has changed in her what she's become as a more real complete woman I wouldn't trade this Sarah for anything so whatever cost it's been to get here whatever was part of her becoming all that God's made Sarah to be I wouldn't trade any of it I love this woman more than any of the previous incarnations of Sarah though we do joke at times about can the good Sarah come out and play sometimes because when we reach those tensor moments in marriage but I still think we have the competition I mean Sarah's been so good to serve where God wanted me to be she been maybe went too far in doing that and I don't think I've gone too far in doing that for her I'm just learning to say you know whatever and there were times I didn't have any going back to college I'm like oh I don't like this at all but I just say God this is what you're putting on your heart I'm supporting it I think if someone is confident I think if a husband and wife are confident in who they are or I don't think you would probably experience a lot of competition I don't really feel I mean I've never really felt that with Wayne but I'm not a big competitor yes I understand confess your own sins not mine let's play volleyball you know it's interesting Jesus our heavenly bridegroom he died so that his bride could become everything that father ever purposed her to be and it just seems such a weird contradiction to me when we have such patriarchal dominant kind of views within traditional Christianity that somehow the guy's got and it's like you know what if your wife is not becoming an absolute fulfilled flowering expression of everything that God purposed then somehow your understanding of what that role is isn't working and I think when things are about power and life is without Christ it is about power and how you get power and powers about happiness and all that then people are what you manipulate and I think religion is enough in Scripture to completely shut down half the body of Christ you know women be silent in the church and women are just you know support your husband to be submitted you can manipulate Scripture to absolutely shut down half of the body of Christ and it's done all the time I can't tell you how many women I've talked to on this website or that I've traveled with and talked in groups with that the whole whenever they start asking too many questions the prophecy about the Jezebel spirit comes out and demoralizes women absolutely if you're an independent thinker if you have some thoughts outside the box if you're asking the honest questions as a woman you get killed as a man you can get killed too if you're doing it but I think women there's just so easy to just in a blanket way repress half the body of Christ I think we need to stop it we need to tell women you get to be everything God's made you to be Jesus said that was without limit he didn't put limits on that in Christ there's either male or female absolutely because I mean your husband your wife but you still are too separate I mean if you're you're both Christians you are a brother and sister your brother and sister first and so in that you each have your own identity you are separate you are independent however marriage does combine it but that doesn't mean if you eliminate them and control the biggest thing is control I mean if you don't try to control each other and let each other be able to be free of what God has really have you do and for every woman it's going to be different and like I said it's going to change I might be different 5 10 years from now and I think that's a whole podcast right till we back to marriage and control and I do think that's the big thing that couples face when they don't get along it's their attempts to control each other so maybe we come back to that sometime yeah hey thanks kid always good to have you in here you came away unscathed that was pretty good Wayne oh boy I'm bleeding under below the desk you just can't see it yet hey also we're trying to get some questions from y'all about Brad and I think you've always wanted to know about Brad or Wayne I only got 3 or 4 for Brad I mean more about me's out there my goodness everything I've ever done is written in a book somewhere or Sarah's broadcasted somewhere it's on and on the truth we'll have Sarah on that we won't have Sarah for that one anyway I'm not sure when you do that podcast probably later this month so if you can get us some questions like that if you want ask of me send them to Brad and if you want them asked of Brad send them to me alright thanks for traveling with us today on The God Journey if you'd like to join the conversation we'd appreciate your comments or your questions by email or at our website thegodjourney.com stop by today and join the conversation