Battling Depression — http://thegodjourney.com/wordpress/2006/10/28/battling-depression/

It's now time to think outside the box of what we've always known. I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the sovereign lord. I think that's a profound turning point in somebody's relationship with God. And our hope in starting this was that this would become an ever-expanding conversation. Just two real guys talking about life. That's a nice tagline. I'm Wayne Jacobson. And I'm Brad Cummings. And welcome to another edition of The God Journey. So I want to know one thing. One thing, and then we're done. One thing, one thing. And then we're done. We just had an opportunity to have Oreo cookies, and you passed. Yeah. I tried, I gave you the eyebrow. I mean, when the offer was there, I gave you the eyebrow, and you totally dissed it. What's the deal with Oreos in you? No, I like Oreos. Okay, I like Oreos. Yeah, but you passed on them. You know, I passed because on this day, on this night, at 8 o'clock in the evening, it just didn't sound like the calories I wanted to have. And if they were here... Are you counting calories? I don't have them. I'm always counting them. Well, a simple Oreo. When I get up to five or six thousand, I try to slow down. That makes sense. No, I just, I came back from this Texas trip just a little higher than I like to be. So I'm trying to cut back a little bit before I go. Oh, that's right. And if, like if somebody brought in a piece of chocolate cake right now, the calories are worth it. You would have devoured it. Well, those are worth it. The Oreo cookie? That just doesn't work for you. Homemade chocolate chip cookie? Yeah, I know. I saw that. And then when Sarah said that they got left at school... Cold stone chocolate ice cream with hot fudge on it? Worth it. Woo. Oreo cookie tonight? And they're not even a sponsor. Yes, some days it'd be worth it. They're not even a sponsor. Well, let's see what we can do about that and get some freebies. My goodness. Well, the form's been active, hasn't it? Yeah, there's a whole bunch of stuff. But you know one of the things that piqued my interest was they were talking about wanting to do, to hear a show about some kind of like depression and dealing with chronic mental illness and stuff like that. I thought you were perfect with that. Well, I'm still in denial about it, so I'm not sure it would be helpful. This is an intervention show. We're going to try to confront Wayne with his chronic mental illness. Okay. And you can call. Oh, never mind. Evan said I'd like to hear Wayne and Brad discuss how to deal with mental health issues and chronic negative emotions that we can encounter on this journey. But I don't know if they personally experienced serious mental health issues requiring outside professional help. I'm available and willing if they want to interview me on this issue. So in fact, I did interview someone a few months ago who had been part of a body of believers for some time was sliding into some depression, which he attributed to kind of a breakup of a relationship combined with some real criticalness in his own heart about other Christians thinking he was part of the favored group and then found himself on the brink of suicide and a SWAT team outside of his house and some days in getting some help. And he said to me, which I found interesting is that the body of Christ through that wasn't helpful because he was told if you just would believe the Bible, you'd be fine. They don't really want donors. He was there. He's at the point of going to take his own life and finally had to go outside of the family in the sense of getting professional help to get it sorted out, which I applaud. People ask me, should you go to a secular counselor or only Christian counselors or whatever? If they're helpful. Yeah. I don't know how deeply we're going to get into this. I am not an expert on depression issues. I don't know that. I mean, I've had bad days and I know what despair is. But I'd say as I have talked to people who are really battling depression, clinical depression, I don't know that I've been close to that. I don't think until you live with it where it is pretty much debilitating over an extended period of time, I don't think unless you've been there that you really are going to understand people who battle with that. And I think it's, you know, I think we both walked with and we both walked with a number of people. I've dealt with a lot of people who have sought help because of depression issues and things like this. So I think I have some understanding, but I'm devoid of that, you know, the personal experience of I know what it's like. I know what I've been told and I've listened and I've shared and I've walked with people that battle with that. And, you know, what I have learned is it's not something to just sort of say, well, get over it. You know, it isn't one of those, well, just, you know, you got to make up your mind. You know, it's like, you know, don't worry, be happy. This is the day the Lord has made up. Just praise the Lord. You know, I mean, I think the challenge of the institution is I think most people really aren't that interested in rolling up their sleeves and walking several miles with somebody who's really dealing with that. We do that with a lot of problems where it's like people, you know, hi, how are you? They're not really asking that. Anyone that stops to answer that one doesn't tend to get responded to the way they were hoping. You know, a lot of times people are just, you know, they're uncomfortable. And I don't know why that is. I mean, I, you know, we can come up with a lot of things, but at the end of the day, I don't really know why we have that veneer, that plastic dynamic within relationships. Because it seems to me the bulk of people tend to go to the clubs and to the church environments because they are seeking relationship. It's just bizarre to me that that's not what they're really finding when they need it most. Well, I think sometimes we're so needy ourselves that the whole consumeristic mindset of where you attend, whether even whether you attend a house church versus a traditional congregation or whatever. A lot of it is based on what I think I need and I want for my life. It's kind of like those seagulls in Nemo Mike Mike Mike Mike Mike. And I think that's so when you get near somebody that has a chronic enduring need and I don't, it can be mental health and emotional like we just talked about depression. It can be someone dealing with cancer or a continued financial need. I think people get exhausted in their own life. First of all, I don't carry enough extra from their own life to really be available to someone else. And the other part is that we just want people to fix it. We want to pray about it. And then that's the band-aid and you should be better. I know people, my wife said this one day, you know, she talked about just being going through a tough spot with a group of people and they prayed that she would have the joy of the Lord. And it's just not a bad prayer. But then at the end of the prayer, you kind of feel like you have to pretend. You can just smile. It's all better. I do think people get tired of chronic need and people who have chronic need feel that regardless of what people are saying, they do feel brushed off and a bit impatient with it. I don't know that they're just tired of it. I think they're frightened by it. I think when you're presented with something that I can't just pray away, then it's a crisis of faith. Which is most of life, isn't it? But yeah, but then it's a crisis of faith. And I think that's why there is so much pretense and just sort of the whole plastic little smile. It's like, how are you doing, brother? Oh, great. Fine. Thank you. I think people are afraid of dealing with the nuts and bolts of real nitty-gritty life. Hey, we're talking about depression. Don't use nuts. Okay. Because that probably wouldn't be good. Right? I wasn't using it in that context. I'm sorry. You know, some of the things I've learned about the depression dynamics is that, you know what? I don't think you can paint with a broad brush anywhere within this subject. I think sometimes there are physical ailments and that the emotional depression is an additional onset that's debilitating that is sort of the resultant residue of someone who's just lived with chronic sickness and physical, you know, ill health. And it hasn't been solved. And then not only that, it's like they're just feeling down. And I think sometimes it isn't associated with that. You know, I have been in situations where, look, spiritual warfare dynamics and prayer and healing brought about deliverance from depression. And so there's spiritual dynamics behind it. I also heard that, you know, to some degree a lot of times depression is anger turned inward. And it's for some folks, it's like there is a self-absorbed dynamic of I'm not getting what I want and I'm bummed out. And it's like sometimes it's just that. But I think some of the questions that are laying are things that are much deeper than just that. And so what I've recognized is that most of the time when people are dealing with this, there is no quick fix because it's a many-layered dynamic. There's a lot of things that go into the whole health of a person. But one of the things I think we'd want to say very clearly is if you feel like you're one of these who are battling depression, and that's just not you're having a bad day or week or month or whatever, but this, like you said, debilitating long-term hopelessness. Yeah, just can't get going during a day and just feel totally disconnected is to take it seriously and do whatever you can see to do to see what works. And it's like you said, there's no certain answers. If a prayer from a group does it, great. If a prayer from a group doesn't do it. It is worth seeing a medical doctor and finding out if there are physical contributions of this thing or chemical contributions to this thing that can help out. It is helpful to see a counselor. And to be honest, I always say not necessarily a Christian counselor. If you've got a Christian counselor who understands depression, who can help you work it out, great. But so many people who travel under the name Christian counselors are just purveyors of shame management. And it's all about trying harder, doing better, pretending to be happy, ignore your feelings and all that. Take these two Bible verses, call me in the morning, which I'd say stay away from that. Anybody just tells you, look, here's all you need to do. Whatever follows that is usually nuts. It's usually not going to help you. And so take it seriously. I had my wife when she went through the counselor training and you deal with people, even thoughts of suicide. I mean, maybe you thought about it once. That's not a deal. But persistent there. Yeah, those, not to be ignored. Man, that ought to be a huge red flash sign going on in your life. Tell somebody. Tell a close friend. Tell, get to a counselor. Get to a doctor. Take that seriously because it's not worth ending your life over, over depression. It's not worth it. Even, even if it looks like it, like, man, I just got to get out of this thing. I have no place else to go and nobody cares about me. It's, it's not worth ending what God's given you because you're, you're caught in a hole right now and you can't find your way out because there are ways to get out. Yeah. I mean, one of the things that's so, I think so challenging is that depression is so isolating for people and what they really need is they need some folks who will be there with them, not just trying to fix them, but who will hang out there with them. And that takes a pretty unique set of people to be able to hang with someone who really is battling in that arena. That's, that's, it can be exhausting. I know that people that sought me out that, that dealt with this, it's like I would, after spending some time with them, I would leave physically and mentally absolutely spent because I'm, you know, I'm trying to do everything that I know to help. And one of the things I realize is, you know what, sometimes just to be with someone, to acknowledge the fact that there is something here that is beyond us, beyond our ability to just fix, can't just define it away, can't just pray it away. Or blame it away and say this is your fault. You need to just think more positive thoughts. I mean, that's, that's what's so unhelpful. That's like telling someone who's grieving for the death of a loved one, to a better place. That doesn't help. Yeah. It may even be true, but it doesn't help. Yeah. I think one of the things that is, is so helpful is if what emerges out of the acknowledgement of this is where I'm at, is honesty. And, and, and the freedom of the capacity just going, this is where I'm at. As opposed to, is that good or is that bad? It's just, this is where I'm at. And, and I think there's, there's one silver lining of, of real benefit that I've, I've seen from people that I've never been in depression is when all of a sudden they realize that they need something more than just themselves to live this life. That's actually an incredible point of good revelation and the dependence of, of being able to cry out to God and say, hey God, guess what? I can't fix this. I can't just do better. I can't just try harder. There, there is a good side of brokenness. If, if they know that, I think most, most don't know it. Most keep saying, gosh, if I could just, you know, something I'm not doing right. I'm not praying right or believing right or I've, I've got an addiction to pornography or something going on that justifies my depression and I'm just weak and I should, if I could do better it would be, so I think people really need to know that. Number one, we can't crawl out of anything we've done to ourselves. No, no, no. Even addictions that we seem to be, the podcast we did for last week about, you know, earning grace by repenting and not sinning willfully anymore. Well, gosh, most of our sins border on the willful. It's not like we didn't know not to do it. It's that just the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak kind of thing. So realize that Jesus was able to handle that with his guys, the things he asked them to do. He knew they couldn't do. He knew Peter wasn't going to be strong that night and was going to, you know, deny him anyway and he was going to be depressed the next day over that. So realize that you can't pull yourself up by your bootstraps. So I think that is a great place for people to come to. That is maybe also where you can be a friend to someone who's in depression because maybe they don't have enough wherewithal to pull that out and you know them. You know them. They're just, they're always heavy. They're hurting. They're not functioning well. You know when you ask me, how are you doing? I'm doing okay. And then we just, we let it pass because we, we don't want to crawl into that hole with them because we, we feel incompetent. I think a lot of people, I don't know what I'll do. I'm not a professional. I have no idea. And so I just want to, we're frightened. I want to smooth over the conversation. This would be a great place to say, hey, you know, crawl into that hole. Even if you're saying stuff like, I have no idea what to do for you, but I want you to know I'm going to be here for you and I'll walk with you through this and I'll help you with the help we need. So if you're the one that says, who's your doctor? Let's make an appointment. If you're the one that says, let's find a counselor and call some mental health people and find out who to go talk to. Let's try this person or that person that may have some giftedness to help people with depression. And be an eye for them. And if the person who's trying to help them has got the big shovel full of religious obligation, just kind of say, let's pass this one by. And maybe that would help a ton for people to know. Depression sometimes just catches up with some folks. And like we said, we don't know what the reasons can be incredible. You know, like you said, you went through a lot of them. I know people that I've walked with in depression that really if I believe what they believe about, if I was in their world view of life, I'd be depressed too. I mean, their coping mechanisms were never matured for some reason. They didn't know how to handle grief, how to handle pain, how to and so instead of being able to process it over time, not immediately, but they haven't learned how to do it. And I've said to some people, who even, you know, went on some medication for a while to help with depression, if it's not a chemical imbalance, I'm okay with somebody using Prozac or whatever. Just like I would use a crutch if I broke my leg. I think it is a crutch. But if I broke my leg, a crutch would be a pretty good thing to have for a while while that bone gets healed. And I think when the despair gets too great, maybe some medication helps you get back to a place where you can have the conversations and prayers. Yeah, I had a fantastic friend that, you know, still I think to this day, to measure, struggles with depression. And one of the things that unfortunately he got from, you know, the church structure is, you know, there was something wrong with him because he was taking Prozac. And I'm just going like, just objectively, if I look from the outside, you know what, when you're taking that, wow, life is more manageable for you. When you're not, you can't do much anything. Everything goes into the wastebasket. And I look at that and it was like, they're just a point of realization. You know what? You can't paint with a broad brush here. Right. In this situation, that was very helpful for him. Now, in other situations, I've known that sometimes that drug can almost invite even greater suicidal thoughts in some individuals. And so he's going like, you know what? I know enough about the medical profession to know that they don't really know exactly how all of this works. This works with some people. It doesn't work with other people. And I think when you look at this, if you can recognize that there may be many sources that are at play here, all working different dynamics. And to really help someone crawl out of this, it may take a while. And I think you said something that I've recognized is key. You're dealing with almost universally with depression stuff. Something is unprocessed. Something's unprocessed. You know, whether it's the chicken or the egg thing, it's like, you know what? There may be a chemical imbalance that right now some drug therapies will actually help stabilize. That will then allow that person to process. That if they do, at some juncture, maybe these are no longer necessary at all. Yeah, well there's two kinds of drugs. There's the drugs that kind of repress the pain and kind of give you an emotional ability to handle things. And there's the kind that compensate for deficiencies. And you know, just like a diabetic would take insulin. It helps correct the mind's chemical balance so that it can process life. So there's really two things here. One, if you take it as a way to soften the depression, then don't take that as a final answer. Just take it as, man, this will give me some clarity of mind so that I can work through whatever I need to work through with somebody. Because even Richard and others who've been through moments of depression have gotten some real help. We'll turn around and say, there's help out there. There's people that can get you in a better place. So you're not living with this excruciating pain every day. And take advantage of it. Find it however you have to find it. I call the mental health people in your community. Sometimes there's all kinds of county offices and whatever. And they know people. They know counselors' places to go that have some effective treatment of it. In that, even if you're going to a secular counselor, go in God's name. Go and say, God, speak to me through this. And maybe they're going to say something. You know what? That doesn't sound like God. And I'm just not going there. But for the most part, these people will understand your faith. They're not going to dismiss your faith. No good counselor is going to dismiss your faith to try and help you. Even if they're a secular counselor. But take it seriously. Get the help you need. And don't just let and then learn how to process. I think one of the things that I often, as I talk to people who go through this, I want to find out what are your thought processes? And sometimes it's, gosh, the thought processes are fine. So it kind of aims to me to be more chemical. Other times, no, the thought processes are pretty bad. And then you shut down. If I woke up that way every day. And my friend Dave, who helped me write the Jake book and I think would love to get him on sometime to talk about this. He's had a lot of experience with depression. He says what you mentioned earlier that there's two ways seemingly to respond to fear in our life. Fear and threats. One is to externalize it. And that's anger. And you lash out at other people and you're just a mean nasty person outside and probably never get depressed because you're just wailing on everybody else. You're never the problem everybody else is. And then the other way he says we deal with it is that we internalize that anger or fear and then we take it out on ourselves. So that's where depression stems from. It's the same thing. Same thing that makes this guy angry, bigoted, whatever is the same thing that's causing someone else to just get all turned up on themselves and not even be able to wake up in the morning and get out of bed and cope with the day. So there's hope. There's answers for these things even though I'd be the first to say they're not easy. And like you said, if it can be done in a day great, but most of the time this is a long process of God rearranging things in our thought processes. You didn't get depressed in a day. You're not getting undepressed in a day. I think when you look at this whole arena, I think one really valuable thing to and I was trying to highlight this a little earlier is in the cases where people have gotten better that I would love to celebrate and be excited about. Almost all of those people that I know that I had experienced with, they learn something that I just I look back and I marveled. They recognize, you know what, I can't do this in my own strength. And there's a lot of people I know who are still trying to live life in their own strength. And that'll depress you. Well, at some point, yeah, it'll make you angry. I mean, you'll hit the wall of reality that, you know what, the life that we've been called to walk is not a normal human unassisted life. God is calling us to live a supernatural life that the Holy Spirit is going to be the energy by which we live that out. And I think a lot of times the silver lining and the depression stuff is those people get brought to the end of themselves. And the ones that I've seen gotten better. And it's not that, okay, that's the key of all depression. It's more like the stories that I know I was excited to be able to be the recipient of some of what they learned. I've been able to realize, you know what? They know that life is larger than them. And they're okay with that. They've made peace with the fact that, you know what? Yeah, I need help. And they're fun to be around. They're easy to be around. You know, at one point, they might have sucked everyone down below the surface. But on the backside of what they've gone through, they're some of the most grace-filled, mercy-filled folks that they just, they recognize, they're able to sit with others who are in that same boat and they actually have some life to offer, not just some quick fixes. I think that's what Paul was talking about when he and Timothy, Second Corinthians one, I think it's just an amazing chapter because it talks about Paul and Timothy being caught in some kind of circumstance and they don't detail it. But it said they prepared even of life. That's pretty deep. It's pretty deep. Yeah, I mean it's like, gosh, wouldn't we be better off dead? Whatever they're saying about that, it's pretty intense and yet he said these things happen that we might learn not to rely on ourselves but on God. And, you know, I think what we're talking about in terms of whatever help we get for depression, it's not going to lead to more reliance on you and your performance and how you can put on a happy face and pretend not to be. It's going to be how do I learn to rely on God in the midst of how I'm thinking and processing that will change it? And then it gets to exactly what you said. The comfort with which I've been comforted is the comfort now that I get to pass on to the people and I think, I think you're right, people who have survived depression and maybe it's something, maybe it's a lifelong battle for some. Maybe it's just like some physical ailments or lifelong battles for people or some intellectual challenges or lifelong things for people. Depression may be a lifelong thing that you, not that you deal with the horror of it, but you deal with the possibility of it. And in that, learn to rely on Jesus by saying, people who have survived it and come through it are the best people in the world. Just like someone who's been through some great horrible sin and God's delivered him, boy, they're the best people to be near others who are struggling with the same thing. If God's redeemed them in it, if they achieved it themselves, they're no fun to be with. You've got to work harder. But if they have been comforted by the Lord and want to rely on it, then these are the folks that, and so some of you that are battling depression as God finds a way and you find a way with him to walk out of this with him, I like what you're saying. You become a great resource for other people. You'll recognize depression in other people when I'll walk right by and not even see it because you've been there and you recognize the look and you recognize the symptoms. One of the things that I learned out of all this is so, so oftentimes the well-meaning, but not very helpful counsel that a lot of people try to give, I think is predicated on what I consider to be a fallacy. I don't think when things are not going well in your life, that it's true that God is somehow trying to teach you something. But it's always just at the end of the day there's some lesson that you must learn. And I think so much of the counsel, the advice, the in quotes help that people try to offer is predicated on that fallacy that, you know what, if you were doing everything right you would not be experiencing this. And my experience in life is, you know what, I don't think that's true. There's the self-blame again, isn't it? Is this your fault? Yeah. And I think that tends to drive people who are hurting deeper into their pain and hurt in an unhelpful, unredemptive way because, again, it is heaping that sense of the guilt and the shame of, you know what, you're not performing well. If you were really living the life that Jesus called us to live, you'd be happy. That's why the system of religious obligation, I think, is the worst place for a depressed person to be. Yeah. And that's what many counselors will tell you. If you're in this environment where people are trying to increase your sense of shame, if you've got a problem, it's because you're not working hard enough and you're not believing enough or you're not praying in the right way or, you know, whatever. And I think that whole system of religious obligation, number one, doesn't want you to hurt. I want to see you happy. So be happy, would you? Yeah. You know how many praise services have I gone to to begin with that? This is the day the Lord has made you. People don't look like it. Let's put a smile on our faces. And there's that whole denial of emotion and the reality of emotion that seems to be part of the whole religious obligation. People don't need to look happy. And I want you to be happy, certainly. I think that's true. But if you're not really happy, just pretend, Yark, because we don't know what else to do. You're still going on the forums and faking until you make it. Yeah, that's... I don't really think that works so hot. And I like Jim's comment. He said, it seems that our human wiring is that what we don't talk out, we will act out. Yeah, wow. Well said. And I think that's what brothers and sisters are for. And I think this is why we used to say when I was part of a more community before it turned into something we didn't like so much, we kept saying, you know, there's no need that's so insignificant. We want it handed over to the rigors of a program. It really needs a person. Everybody needs some people to walk with them and people they can be honest with and people you don't have to pretend around. People you can genuinely be who you are and what you're struggling with. I'm reading a book that I'm hesitant to know whether I'm going to share the title. I think we may talk about it on a future podcast. I love the contrast in this book between the protected heart, which is I've got to act certain ways and defend myself against everything that's coming to terrorize me. And what God's doing in us to make us an unprotected heart where I can live authentically me and face whatever that brings to my life in the trust that God's bigger than everything that I face. So I don't live with this need to always protect and defend and push away people. And I hope that's the kind of people that God's making us to be. But so that we can pick up others along the way who need a hand, a shoulder, you know, a lifting up to get to the next place in their life of that kind of liberty. I think less completely debilitating cases, just your average kind of depression that I think touches everybody. There is some truth to the fact that you know what your mind dwells on and some of the thoughts that you got programmed into how you understand life. They have a great deal of effect upon that. You know, if my expectation is that in this life I won't have trouble or everything is supposed to be fantastic. If you have those kind of thoughts, the pressure is going to come and whip you upside the head several times. Because you know what, I think that I don't believe there's a promise, a godly promise that says we won't encounter that. We will and we do. We will and we do. And I think, you know, it is important. Peter's expression of that where he says don't be surprised at. I think that speaks to that same thing of fiery trails and tragedies and things. Don't be surprised. This world's pretty broken. We're going to be part of those. It might be more helpful if he said expect them. Yeah. Because I think when you're armed with reality, then you're more able to face it when it's there. Yeah, but I like don't be surprised better than expect them kind of like I live with his oh my gosh what when the shoe going to drop now. And again, I don't think that that was the point that I was wanting to bring out. I think that the dynamic is we do have to examine what are some of the base things that are written on my heart? What do I believe? If I'm in a depressed state, I do think, you know what, there are things to examine. Don't be afraid of that as much as I don't want to give that shame base kind of stuff. I also also don't want to throw out that there are not things to examine. Yeah, but not in a self blaming, shaming. Yes. I mean I think that's why you want the counselor slash friend slash whatever who's not sitting there with playing the blame game with you but really trying to sort out and before God what are the kinds of thoughts that are producing this kind of living or thinking or whatever and really find the grace because Jesus was I'm pretty clear about it. He said like you know we've mentioned that there's going to be trouble. You're going to go through tough times. But what he said to his counselor is like I'm telling you these things so that my joy might be in you and so that your joy might be complete. Yeah. It's not a joy that's based on circumstance so it isn't that but people who struggle with mental health issues, you know why don't we take that on with the same love and affection and non blame that we would someone facing cancer or heart surgery or whatever. You know that we're just man let's just get along beside them. Let's let them express it. Let's pray. Let's seek God's wisdom. Let's find answers medically or however it takes. But man I tell you my heart goes out I've known a lot of folks who face seriously depression. I know people have been clinically institutionalized who were told they would never function again without drugs. I have seen God lead them to a place of freedom and that has been quite honestly a few of the cases I'm thinking of that was nine or 10 people surrounding this person five or six years letting them live in our homes frequent guests at our table walking them through the realities of that depression and tell my gosh they come into a spacious place of freedom and it's wonderful what happens and I just I hope that folks I mean I don't want anybody out there to give up if this is what you battle then battle it and get some help battling it and hopefully among brothers and sisters who are thinking outside the box of just organized religion and the religious obligation thing you really will find some brothers and sisters who care about you enough to walk it through with you what do you say to someone who feels like they have continually cried out to God and yet they still feel stuck under this just lead blanket of despair and they don't hear an answer what do you because I mean I think I know I have been met with several folks that's that's what they feel yeah I've met them too my answer would be I think keep on knocking and keep on seeking I had a brother who and I've known him for years not a physical brother but a spiritual brother who really struggled with alcoholism and he was going to win it by commitment and devotion he'd do well for a while and then he'd crash again he'd pray and beg God he'd be so angry at God because God wouldn't fix it every time he'd fall off the thing and why didn't God love if God loved him God would fix it and I was talking to him this whole time and one of the things that came up is why don't you go to AA and the thing is I don't go to AA I want to trust God I want to trust God with this thing and and he was just going to fight it on its own and have healing the way he saw healing coming and I mean for years putting his family at risk putting himself at risk sometimes driving drunk a couple of years ago he ended up driving to work drunk and just realized this is a huge mistake walked into his boss dropped the keys on his desk and said I'm drunk and I need help and this boss to his credit got him in rehab that day 28 days of rehab got him out working with AA this brother now has walked in some great freedom the last two years and goes why did I wait so long the very thing I was resisting I was saying you know if God will do it I won't need AA I won't need a counselor I won't need this you can't get healing on your own terms can you I think that's part of it for people if what you're doing isn't working what else can you do where else can you look who else can you talk to don't stop because it hasn't come yet I think God's promise is pretty certain I'm going to get there with you but sometimes we we wanted to find those steps we wanted our terms and it's not God saying look I'm only going to do it to AA it was AA for this brother had what he needed had what God needed to work through in his life and I think the process is great and particularly for him he travels a lot and he was visiting me one time in LA he was here on business and he was going to an AA meeting that night and that to me is such a great picture of what the body of Christ could be if we weren't so fractionalized by all the stupid things that divide us he says every town I go into I can call an AA and I said I go to a meeting and I honestly I'm just part of where those guys are he said you know what I don't get up and walk out of a meeting but one of the other guys all strangers to me when I walk in that night but we'll walk up and say what do you need tonight not to drink do you need somebody to go to dinner with you do you need somebody to and they will do whatever he said I've got that in every town I go to anywhere in the states and man I tell you what if the body of Christ could take it that seriously and say you know what it really takes brotherhood and sisterhood to walk people out of things is there's no quick fixes for some things it's just the lifetime of friendship and care and what do you need to get out of the place you're in and we'll see God together but I just say don't stop just because what you're doing doesn't work doesn't mean God doesn't have any answers just don't stop short of that breakthrough. I think one of the things I've noticed in the cases that I know where people they have gotten well almost all of them have recognized the need to transfer control of their life over into the hands of the Lord that sense of surrender and you know for some folks it can be just like religious language for these people they recognized they had to relinquish their control their life was out of their control and they were being consumed by something that was bigger than them and when they were able to sort of recognize I think the people that I've watched that don't get well are still trying to do it on their terms and I don't think God's up in heaven going well I'm sorry I'm not going to help you because you have terms I think it just it limits the capacity of where we can because I'm still trying to do it well it's not a to me depression is a real thing it's not just okay it's kind of a thing that God could fix that whenever he decides to there's something that needs to be untangled and if we if we're not going to go to the places that will help untangle it then we're going to keep struggling with it so untangle it find brothers and sisters who walk with you through it aren't going to play the blame game are going to gossip about you who are not going to grow impatient with the struggle won't let you be the victim and and yeah and won't keep loading up with advice I tell you the thing depressed people need the least is good advice they need a compassionate shoulder and they need people who will pray and help them see options they don't need somebody telling them what to do none of us do because it's just not helpful yeah love is not something you can just happen in a moment it's like I think that's where the need for relationship and ongoing walking I'm not healed by just some serendipist moment of love the things that really heal me the relationships that really help me are the ones where there's the ongoing sense of security of you know what I have to perform here anymore for this person for that in that relationship I don't I don't have to be a something I'm loved I'm received I'm accepted and that's healing and I think sometimes just the wordless presence of being with someone just you know I don't have a solution I don't have an answer I don't know I I don't know what you're feeling I I don't I oh yeah this is what I have no idea but I'm here yep that that those can be so helpful and they'll be more than anything to the person struggling if it doesn't have the agenda and and the pressure you got to get well in a couple of weeks here I'm moving on because I can't handle being around a depressed person it would so help them to know look I'm just with you and even when I haven't fogged idea what to do just with you well this is something obviously that I think we'll probably talk about again and I think this is great because I think on the form some of you have struggled with depression some of you who haven't tagged onto this yet and some of you have found your way out of it somewhere still in the middle of it what's helpful to you what's not what was helpful to you what isn't I think this is a great way to spur on a larger conversation than you and I talking about yeah I'm curious to see the dialogue that will develop out of this and it might be that we would some of you have offered to kind of talk to Brad and I on a phone line sometime and it might be helpful to do that where we would I mean just personally even talking about it from a broader context we can let some other people listen in because this is a big deal I think there's a lot more depressed Christians that we know about because we're really taught to hide it not to be open about it we have a society of denial in regard to it and if this just opens that I think it's worth it so I'm off to New England I'll be gone a couple of weeks so we pre-recorded this one so it hasn't had much comment from anything recent on the forums but I'll see you when you're running out of laundry we'll be back in a couple of weeks be back for your favorite holiday I hate Halloween I know you do thanks for traveling with us today on The God Journey if you'd like to join the conversation we'd appreciate your comments or your questions by email or at our website thegodjourney.com step by today and join the conversation