Gratefully Disillusioned — http://thegodjourney.com/wordpress/2006/11/17/gratefully-disillusioned/

The ongoing dialogue of the God Journey podcast many of us are waking up to that's not a formula to be work He's a God who loves us who has a purpose in the world to redeem it back to himself Who will work good in our lives through the most horrible things that we face When we first started this whole podcast thing, you know, we're trying to come up with a name I just remember somehow the whole God Journey thing settled and we've had people tell us that was a stupid name Those just few words say awful lot of true things This is just my deal my little story. It's not about me I am just a supporting actor in a greater drama Well, I'm Brad Cummings and I'm Wayne Jacobson and here we are for another edition of the God Journey Wow, we got the wrong one up last week, you know this didn't know there's a little yeah It took a while for people to recognize I think they like the previous one I think they like the previous one so much. They just decided to put it up again. You remind me actually a story I heard of a guy who went to a congregation in England and he spoke something and came back about a year later and Felt like impressed to speak on the same exact deal again So he did exactly the same teaching again And then the third year he went back and he did it again for the third time and a guy came up to me after the third time and he said you know what I Think we've heard this before and he said you have your two other times. He said and until you guys start living it I'm gonna keep coming back and sharing the same thing So that's what we could do. He's sort of re-run podcasts until we're blind or something Hey, haven't I haven't said anything about chipper for a long time. My wife said that this week She said everything about chipper. I'm going good may rest in peace, but oh stop it No, it's funny. He's been out out gallivanting at night He likes being that he likes getting out at night. This is this a g-rated podcast. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes Okay, but this is very funny Our our neighbors next door they have one of those like yip yip dogs I mean it's like kind of an embarrassment for the dog whole dog kingdom. It's like you just like well, that's not a dog That's a yip yip like a picketing or something. Yes, a little white yip yip dog very irritating and very very just you know cute whatever but not a real dog not cute and We're trying to figure out where chipper was and chipper was at their back door at their back screen door Terrorizing this dog He's just out back where you know, he's totally safe and the dog would come to the window and all of a sudden chipper will We didn't know it chipper was having so much fun next door just terrorizing little cat I just kind of went that's that's funny little Osama the cat Osama chipper was out there Terrorizing it was it was very funny. He just was and we curtailed this activity. Are we filming it for YouTube or what? No, it would make America's funniest videos if we were able to capture it from the inside of the glass thing. It's just very funny So chipper's alive and well and he's he's doing well. He's out Challenging the dogs in our neighborhood. Sorry to hear Sorry to hear. Oh, sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Hey, I'll never guess where I went last week No idea. Oh, you remember a couple months ago. I got invited to this gathering of atheists. Oh, yeah Yeah over some big school issue the atheist meeting. So I joined the atheist meeting just that once I didn't join them Didn't join the clock. They kick you out because it so you would you would be able to pass for very long for an atheist So last week I got an email invitation to a pastor's prayer gathering for Ventura County All fun. I have no idea how I got on that list into enough of those I thought that was hilarious and So as I was having a good laugh, I submitted your name. I see Well, I was just a fact I'd already hit my delete button and it was gone and then I felt this little this little nagging nudge that said Back up a little bit and I what and I really felt like I Really felt like I was Jesus sent you to the past. Well, I'm not saying that I'm just At this point in my life. I'm learning to follow those little nudges and that because interestingly enough I really and I think this was part of it for the past now three four weeks I've kind of had this thing in my heart that there's somebody a Pastor type who lives fairly close to where I live That God wants me to walk beside for a bit and I have no idea who it is. I mean I have no idea So I guess when this came I thought well, maybe that's a place I might you know, I'll find out who's there and mention a guy from more parks. I thought I'm a more park see me value That's close. So I'll go check it out So I went to check it out and I had to remind me why I don't go to those things Gosh at one level it was just fascinating Sociologically it is fascinating. It was well, yes I Know a weird subculture aren't we on the other hand? It's incredibly painful to watch these guys I mean, I know for a lot of the kind of quote-unquote out of the box crowd who really talks about pastors as the enemy because they Are often the gatekeepers in some pretty Shall we say it less than free institutions? They're often that But gosh just sitting with them during times of prayer and singing and Exalting God and listening to some things that were shared I just found my heart really breaking for a lot of the guys in that room wonderfully sincere guys Who really have taken this sincerity and passion for God and are playing it out in this leadership role that I think is Abominable and interestingly enough the guy that was kind of sharing and kind of coordinating this thing Planted 30 years ago, probably the most would you say probably the most coveted institution in the area? Yeah, the the big outward success big building huge numbers of people well known throughout the area Lots of other kinds of services and they threw him out he got a They invited him they want to get a new horse. Yeah, they wanted a new basketball star on the team and they retired him From his post. It sent him into a great depression. I guess and struggle But he was sharing about it and what he basically started out by sharing was this for the 30 years that I did that and planted all that I Had lost touch With the real passion in my heart Which is helping people know Jesus and I lost touch with him myself I mean chasing budgets chasing programs doing all the things that were expected of me I mean he starts out with about 10 minutes of this pretty gut-wrenching tail of The thing everybody's coveting in this valley is the thing that killed me spiritually Well Bravo here Thank You Jesus I'll toast that And then you can't believe how quickly they pulled out the duct tape and you know pulled all that thing together It was amazing. What do you mean? They pulled out the duct tape Well, I think you know every time there's a rift in the illusion of this thing we call church That is most of our Sunday morning establishments in one way or another and you see through a crack in it You know the I think that the Haggard thing a couple weeks ago is a rip in that and what we really want to believe is That's one bad apple has nothing to do with the barrel and so the you know It's a little rip in the curtain and then somebody plastered duct tape on it. Don't be looking through there Things are fine And I pass me the duct tape quick quick. There's a tear and I feel exactly the way here's this very honest vulnerable moment Yeah, that won't last long now, and then it slides into but you guys I know you can do it better And I did it and here's the thing you can actually save your program. No, no, no Here's another program. You're kidding. No No, no, no, no this whole thing that you all covet was a failure and estranged me from Jesus Yeah, but but you can do it better. That was a message. Oh, you're the good You're the pastors. You're the leaders. You're the ones. God's using in this area And so I was slapping people down that were pulling up duct tape But they did it pretty well I we actually had a small prayer time I was one of the brothers and he was just really sharing that his Whole life is in conflict between that what she feels like Jesus called him to do and that that he has to do To keep the institution running and to keep the board happy and to keep the salary coming And that was a pretty common theme when because encourage people just you know kind of open up Don't let what happened to Hagrid ever to you because you know, he wasn't sharing with anybody So share honestly where you're struggling with and up the yeah room full of strangers and competitors These guys are going to share and they didn't really but a little One group I was in one guy opened up a bit and I thought you know here's is an interesting deal Because now we're just we almost said it we almost said look this thing is worthless But we keep doing it And so I talked to a few folks There's some other folks that I wanted to meet so I met them a little bit And then the room was kind of thinning down as we were done And I just turned to walk out and right in I'm at turn from this conversation It just ended turn around and I'm two feet from the guy who did all the sharing And so I introduced myself to him and told him we'd met a couple years before and I the good friends of Brad I you know every Yeah, I know everybody told my new you and he looks concerned when I said that I'm kidding But I looked at him and I actually said can I ask you a question? He said yeah, I said what The whole first bit of this wasn't it about this Ultimate institution in the county Didn't work isn't working is just a social club to entertain groups of people I'll be with a little jesus chaser on the side And you know destroyed your relationship with jesus is so destroyed your passion for his mission in the world Why are we not telling all these guys? Hey, let's disband them and just be the body of christ in the area And he glazed over no, he didn't actually glaze over but you could see him kind of reaching for the duct tape I mean he was What and I said, yeah, I mean real you said this thing almost this is every guy in this room covets what you had You just told him it didn't work for you and it's not working for the people that are there So how is it that you're just going to tell these guys you can do it better You can just add this program to all that stuff Well, and you'll get there. It's right there. It is because he had to support the hamburger helper the program They got to have a new thing to do always He's been retired now. He's reignited his passion But as opposed to just walking that in the context of a relationship He's got another program. He's got another it and you got to then promote it that yep And so it's right back with the better mousetrap Not recognizing That you're doing the same old deal. It's another lap around the mountain and then I asked him this I said, you know, we deal with people not sharing their faith, which is what it was all about Do you think if people had A real relationship with Jesus every day Do you think they could help themselves from not sharing? I mean, do you really think it's possible? Could the larger problem be That people have no idea who Jesus is and what you're asking them to do is market something called christianity And no one likes selling it It's pretty boring It's not fun. It's not and he said, you know what? You might be right. It's like I gave him my card and I said I'd love to have lunch with you someday. He goes. I'm pretty busy guys. I'm a busy guy, too So I travel a lot. I said travel a lot too. See I said we're in town on the same day though Might be a jesus event. I'm thinking I understand now why I've brought up the whole chipper thing. There you are At the pastor's meeting like a little cat Yeah, only one of them. I only whooped up one of them, but I guess that's what chipper We're out there terrorizing the pastors. I love it. Good job. Wait. Wow. Well, actually I met some that I'm really going to pursue Some relationship with I'm really kind of interested. No, because I What I had on my heart is there's somebody around here That's where I was about 20 years ago Trying to make it work. Oh, there's not just somebody knowing, you know, what I I think virtually every Anybody with some measure of responsibility That is leading a group of something And they genuinely want to follow jesus and yet they're stuck at an institution I'll guarantee you they're all struggling with the dynamics of going like what this, you know, because The reason they're there. I've got to assume is the genuine passion for christ That that's that's what ignited their heart. That's why they are wanting to go after this. I mean sure it can be Or I don't want to burn in hell thing Yeah, but I don't that gas doesn't last that long and that what doesn't last that gas They if that's the gas the fuel okay, I got fuel doesn't work Words we've used on this broadcast before probably is And I've used it a lot with people because I get calls from people are just our disillusion with god and the church and We've kind of turned that word around I have to say, you know an illusion If you're disillusion, that means you had an illusion that needed to be dissed Yeah, and this this poor guy had an illusion about his Congregation that got dissed now. Yeah, what do you got this? What do you do with that? Do you pull the duct tape out and rebuild the illusion? And I think we're really really good at that There's so many ways that we just say The institution that christianity the religion that christianity has become in the 21st century Is a long ways away from what jesus came to give us as life in him It's a long ways away from that and there are moments when people see through those illusions and clearly Is not working And then we have a choice. I think we have a choice to I like the expression Which we're talking about making t-shirts someday that say Gratefully disillusioned. Yep, because that's the way I feel. I feel like man. I and I'm disillusioned about a lot of things it's not Just religion and christianity as religion. It's politics in our culture It's the the financial way our world works and capitalism being such a gift of god There's a lot of things i'm disillusioned about and learning the joy of living and I think i'm a long ways from it still But at least in an increasing way illusion free I just want to live with things the way they really are not trying to pretend. It's something. It's not And I think we've been very good at that. Yeah, and I think folks that have been in leadership positions within that whole context You spent so much time in in the mindset that You know this institution that i'm promoting is really the represented representation of of jesus christ And then when all of a sudden you start to step back and you recognize This institution this thing that i'm promoting is not necessarily A very good or agate it what's really hardest all of a sudden step back and recognize when when the lights come on You go like wait, this is not that The the disconnect that happens for so many people's well now what yep, and they don't know what to do And so it's like if someone has duct tape And they you know They offer it That that tends to be the the reflex of choice where you're just going like well Oh, but you know, I can't conclude that that's too extreme Because they don't know Something else they they they don't have an alternative in their idea It's the whole the whole matrix thing. It's like, you know once you've had the red pill. Yeah, and you've experienced a desert of the real You you might want to go back But how do you go back and it's like, you know for a lot of people they go like is there a blue pill Can I take a blue pill? Can I go back and just be happy and it's like I don't know how I don't know how to swallow that thing. I can't Well, maybe there are two steps to this on on the one side. There is that moment of disillusioning Which is if you if you survive that of itself isn't enough though if I'm just disillusioned with something It's not enough if if in my disillusionment I start to come to grips with the real I start to come to grips with who god really is and who the church of jesus christ is In the world today and something alive begins to flow through these veins that didn't exist when I was In my illusion. I think that's the other piece of it that some people quite frankly miss Those who don't miss it Who who really decide who really discover what it is to live deeply in god's life in a growing way Boy, they're not going to be drugged back to the illusion for anything. In fact, the duct tape is just not even a temptation Because who wants to live in what isn't real who wants to keep pretending Who wants to keep because I think illusions take an awful lot of effort to sustain They do because it's just it's obvious to everybody my goodness Even when I was pastoring and championing the deal I was in you could hear from other people and Well, those were the naysayers and those are the people that don't get it. They're not deeply committed to jesus They're just being critical There's ways to jump all are bitter bitter is a good word. It's just a hint of bitterness and watch it You know when you when you see that kind of thing Then you then you just you got to bolster it back up again. So we are going. Yeah. Yeah. It's good. It's good And I since that was going on in this poor pastors meeting that everybody's seeing through it And every I mean there was life in what he was saying about this didn't work for me And it separated me from my vision. No, let's play that out Not oh, hey, I got a fix for this I got a better way to do it and Just looking to go oh boy duct tape. It's got duct tape written all over it and everybody's pulling it out We're going to piece the thing back together. That is such a that that moment Where that that that crossroads? That is a terrifying place that that really is for a lot of people because It's not it's one thing to be able to look back and go like, okay You know I've sort of I've walked through the tunnel and I've emerged on the other side And I'm enjoying the relationship that I was hungering for in the first place It's one thing to be in that that spot. It's another tell all of a sudden go like Wait a minute. This is what I thought this was and now I recognize that it's not But if you really haven't Had the kind of life altering encounter with the man the person Jesus Christ And so it's like wait a minute. This is about a person. This is about a friend. This is about You know him as opposed to all the paraphernalia that we've slapped his name on Yep Until that comes clear and until that relationship has really taken priority in your heart You are in a wrestling match of going like you put You know give up what's behind door number one to what a cliff? The donkey behind door number two I think that is the challenge Obviously it is because people say I don't know what else is there And I think what we've done well with the whole christianity as religion is it gives us some sense of control and security And certainty in traditions or programs that are consistent over time Even if they're dead They're here every week and if you do your part god's going to do his part It it fits that mold of we're doing something we control And when you start seeing through all that part of pushing away from the control is Am I going to go on this ride of uncertainty? I I've told the story before in the article I wrote in body life, but A week before my daughter got married five years ago She asked if if she could spend a day with me we were kayaking out on the harbor And who wouldn't I mean gosh the week before your daughter's getting married and father daughter day So we went down red kayaks and I haven't kayaked ever So I I got this kayak on the I'm holding on to the dock I signed this. Don't let go of the dock. Have you ever been in one of those? Don't let go of the dock. Yeah Don't let go of the dock. I was quivering like a bull full of jello jello It was and I'm going I will never get this And and the guy looks at me said just shove off. You'll be fine I don't because I was so balancing so quick. It was just jibbering jabbering And I really sat there and said I've got I've got to decide I'm either going to push away from this thing and enjoy a day with my daughter Or I'm going to crawl right back out of and say you know what jill, let's go out to lunch And at the moment, I thought you know, even if I roll over and get wet I'd rather risk the day with my daughter than lose it And so I just pushed away from the dock and within two or three seconds It just kind of evened out and I was fine and you know, I never had that quivery thing again the whole We rode around the whole harbor I think you know, I'm not some expert on kayaking at all But I think it it's analogous to the whole dynamic You cannot live in quote a dock system where there's boundaries and hard things and all that other stuff And try to you know Go in the ocean Those are two totally separate deals And when you're trying to hold on to one while you still are in the other it doesn't work It's terrifying particularly because one's immovable. Yep, and the other's moving Yeah, the other's fluid and if you're if you let go of the dock now you're riding with the water It's not competing against the dock Equilibrium that works in that environment. Yeah, that is antithetical to the other one They're different. They don't work that way But is it riskier being on a kayak in the middle of a shipping channel versus sitting on a dock in a lake? Absolutely That was the decision. Nicodemus was facing I think when he's talking to jesus about this whole thing and he's got it all figured out He's got his whole religious construct for his life and jesus saying this is where the born again thing It wasn't about you know be born again say a sinner's prayer get baptized go forward and church somewhere Yeah, he would just say you jersey be one of us. You guys start all over You you got this construct That is not serving you well You really do have to become like a little child and relearn a way of living that isn't about Control and rules and regulations. It's more about nudges It's more about this wind of the spirit that blows and he says you know the spirit's like a wind It comes and it goes you don't know where it came from or where it's going and the end of day says So is everyone who is born of the spirit. He really talks it you're entering a bit of a journey that's It doesn't have its security in things. It doesn't have predictability. In fact, it's very flexible It doesn't live by rules. It doesn't live by tradition It doesn't live by things that we've learned to find our security in and I remember starting this And it was more than two or three seconds that I remember doing this jello thing on this on this bit of the journey It was very disorienting for a very long time But I just kept saying you know what this is what I want to live I want to learn how to live this way and it changed everything for me. I mean financially to spiritually Reputation and what other people are thinking of you and I just think that's to let go of all that And so it's not just being disillusioned now. It means in my disillusion man. I got a choice Yeah, I can let go of it and take the wildness of the adventure that I can't control Or pull out the duct tape and tape me to the dock because I'm not leaving And this is this may not be and I've heard this so often people This may not be all that jesus said, but I've decided it's good enough for me That's I've heard so many people say about our religious constructs And really they just don't know who he is You know, I do think that There's folks that get disillusion But as opposed to quote letting go of the dock. It's like they live in reaction to it It's like then then they are kind of bitter and critical towards the system and everything is really Seen in light not as opposed to this person that I'm on a new adventure with right, but I'm living in reaction And so, you know, you know, again, I don't want to paint with a broad brush But a lot of the the talk about you know out of the box and all this it's like it's still Always connected to the box They're they're they're they're living in connection to the out of the box. It's like it has nothing to do with a box There is no box If you're related to the box, it's the wrong focus. It's it's you're related to the person Even if you're related to the reaction to the box, that's what you're saying It's like it's like there is a life There is a life in christ that has nothing to do with the trappings of religion Has nothing to do with the box and the system in the system out of system in the box out of the box It's a whole different life We're reminded every day because the the construct of the box is so so permeates Our dialogue and discussion about god and church and life. Yeah, they've they've been equated Yeah, they have and so that's people who who aren't in Get an identity as not being in whether you want it or not I mean people kind of put that on you and I think what you're saying which I have movements new stuff That's all related to the relate, you know reacting to the box Yeah, which which I love what you're saying is this this really gets back to again the little child Let's get back to saying jesus teach me how to walk with you Teach me how to live in you teach me how to think like you think Teach me how to live in the danger of the uncertainty of god rather than Getting a religion substitute for the god thing in my life And I say this is what people are scared of because we've always been and I think people have helped us be scared You can't do that. You're gonna find jim jones out there. He's serving kool-aid with cyanide in it. You just You know, I take the one bad example and say that's it That's if you do not and that and that was really a box. Wasn't it? It was a lack of a box That was a box I just I think we've got to Get beyond the disillusionment get beyond the uncertainty because people it's there It's going to be disorienting for a while Absolutely is and you're going to feel like man I'm the only person within 7 000 miles of here that thinks this way But you're not because god's inviting a whole lot of folks to just come live in me Do whatever I've asked you to do be wherever I've asked you to be and get the focus is not Trying to sort out the structures or lack of structures But get used to what it is to live in him and know him And that's that's a total is it always clear Wayne? Is it is it easy is every day kind of you just sort of have your few minutes check in with jesus and it's clear What you're going to do my question is is it ever clear? That would be a good one. Is it ever I I know it's not I do think that You know, it's a challenge when you're going like gosh It would be nice to have some sort of external grasp of security There's moments where I'm just going like gosh It wouldn't be nice to have some measure of stability and some some sort of guarantee The things are going to be fine And I think we do have that. I think it's called a person jesus But that's a little bit intangible. Not even a little bit. It's a lot intangible. It's a lot a bit And and I do think that you know Trying to to follow him It's like there's no exact science. You can't do it by principles alone It is a relationship and he wants that but sometimes you're just going lord It feels like you're on the backside of bluto and I'm lost here And I do know you and I do love you and I am following you but I'm I'm lost I I don't know exactly what to do right now and I think you have moments of that, you know, someone's there. You want the blue pill again? You don't want the blue pill you just go like Sometimes my my step of faith in that moment is I'm not going back Right now. I'm not retreating I'm not exactly sure how to take the step forward I'm not sure if it's a cliff Or if it's utter darkness or if right around the corner it's breakthrough. I don't know But I am I am committed to jesus. I'm following you And if I've lost you have lost you But I don't think you've lost me that that is where my security comes from. Absolutely. It's not security isn't coming from Okay, I've got this all figured out. I know where the next six months of whatever is It really is no I know him And I'd rather be lost with him Then in a rigid system without him and I don't even just a sunday morning system I'm just talking about even a system of theology and thought and You know, I I tell you I used to I used to feel all that disorientation and conflict and all I wish I had something more secure and I'm willing to go here with you jesus I used to be all of it and I tell you I haven't had that thought in four or five years I really just In fact, when things get too secure and some days they do are and I'm going okay, something's gotta change Because I'm not used to this I'd rather be in the danger of I don't know what god's doing if he wants me to go a pastor's meaning I'll go and I don't know what kind of conversations i'll get into or trouble or Just shut up and pray for him. I may have no idea But i'm willing to go Uh because I care and I want to find out more about whatever it is that he's kind of got me working on and To me, that's the joy of it. The joy is in the uncertainty Because he's there and all the all the fault certainty and I guess that's what it is all the certainties I had in the past were fault. They are they're like this guy said 30 years did this didn't help I'm okay now. I didn't do 30 I gotta tell you I did 15 And in the end you're going no I same thing I same thing he was saying would have been true for me Somehow this took all the passion out of my relationship And out of my mission in the world and what I was paid to do Was very different from what I felt Jesus was asking me to do with people And yeah, I'm but boy, I tell you I wouldn't I wouldn't go back to that I'm not even tempted to go back to that if if I never find another doc I'm going to be okay, man because oh once you start kayaking And once you get over your little moment of You know once equilibrium reestablishes itself in a new life In a whole new vein You don't want to go back. Yep That that's the challenge and for anyone that's struggling out there going like, okay I There's my curtain's been ripped. I can see through I know there's a life out there My biggest Wish and desire for for you is that keep going Don't grab the duct tape. Yeah, put don't settle down the duct tape. Yeah Lock it in the garage I I got this letter a few a couple months ago and we haven't got to it yet There's some other things on here we'll get to someday But she talks about this woman writes and talks about just reading the board minutes bo ard From the local fellowship because her husband is a board b o r e d member. He's a board And it says it speaks of our numbers have plateaued god preparing us for something big And maybe we should buy a building when our lease is up and all that makes my heart just sick These age segregated programs are starting to crop up. I'll admit Started by people in the fellowship not the leadership, but still we have several critically ill many broken hearted single moms struggling marriages, etc We're already walking through the big stuff. I can't handle more people. Why do we have to run this like a business? Why are we going to have when are we going to have time to start taking care of people? I love This whole idea about now the numbers have plateaued. I gotta build something bigger. We got to do something We got and the whole idea is okay. Here's the illusion. This isn't working Because if it were working if lives were being transformed, you don't have to Talk about numbers plateauing. You don't have to do all that stuff when All that's managed spirituality and I think when you when you sort of Assigned the the task of managing Yours and other people's spirituality. You have exited stage left from the life that christ is invited I'm not responsible for your spirituality But here's here. I love you as a friend. I'll walk with you But it's it's not my job to make you a christian. No But here's the duct tape There's something big coming. You know, yeah, how much of that? Just hold on brother coming revival just around the corner. Who's to say the price darkest before the dawn and All the stuff that says that don't really look at what we're looking at here Let's just get the duct tape out. Put it up on the deal Yeah, the big tsunami is coming draw jesus face on the duct tape. We're good And I think what I want to say to folks if you're being disillusioned go ahead. That's good. Let it happen Find the real in the midst of it. Don't just be angry at where you've been lied to and tricked and suckered into whatever And because you were all part of that too But step back and say jesus now I really want it. I want to walk with you I don't want to pull my duct tape out and fix that whole curtain I want to go ahead and look through it and now help me know you as you really are And help me know the church of jesus christ in the world as she really is And that's just great freedom in that Yeah, there is no box Thank you for traveling with us on the god journey. 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