Free Range Believers — http://thegodjourney.com/wordpress/2007/10/12/free-range-believers/

It's now time to think outside the box of what we've always known. I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the sovereign Lord. I think that's a profound turning point in somebody's relationship with God. And our hope in starting this was that this would become an ever-expanding conversation. Just two real guys talking about life. That's a nice tagline. I'm Wayne Jacobson. And I'm Brad Cummings. And welcome to another edition of The God Journey. Oh, back to the funk intro. That's my favorite. But I do like the variety. I think people are into it. You say that every time. I do. Well, the funk is my favorite, dude. It just happens. I'm that generation, man. So you're getting excited. You're about a week out from Ten Commandments opening up big time. Yeah. Big release. Go to the theater near you. Ten Commandments. You're not going to pump people to do your favorite. Yeah. Go to the theater near you. It helps me. How does it help you exactly? On a back end. If this thing's successful. How do you talk about monetarily benefits? Yeah, it's wonderful. Oh, that's nice. I can lay aside my shovel. Is it worth a $9 Metroplex ticket? You know what? I think it is. They did the bang-up job. This is a neat one. I had an interview with a guy from, I don't know, what newspaper is back in Ohio or something like that. And his question to me was, how is this version of the Ten Commandments different than the Charlton Heston Cecil B. DeMille version? And I went, oh. This is a cartoon. Totally cool. Yeah. It's not a cartoon. Animated Shrek CGI. I see. Try to write Shrek's coattails. But we had a great discussion, especially after our last podcast. I said, you know what? I said, God in the Old Testament is typically viewed as sort of an angry, vengeful. He's kind of mad in the Old Testament. Thank God for the Jesus in the new. I said, this one tries to read temper that where you hear the desire in the heart of God for relationship and how he's not just an angry old God. And I said, we really try to bring out some of his friendship with Moses and the offer of God's voice to everybody in the interviewee. How was that guy? The interviewer. Okay. He loved it. He said, that's great. I mean, we had the coolest talk. I don't have any idea where this guy is spiritually, but. Did the interview show up in the paper yet? I don't know. I don't live in Ohio. So if anyone's in Ohio and you see Brad Cummings. He wanted to know if I was a reverend or a pastor. And I said, you said, well, what title do you want? I said, how about Brad? He didn't know to do that. That's no good. He didn't know to do that. Oh my gosh. I was supposedly the theological expert. So I said, you know, Grand Puba intergalactic bishop of the fourth order. Doctor Brad Cummings? No. MDiv Brad Cummings? You could do that, but. That's ugly, isn't it? Yeah. Better than the demon. Demon Brad Cummings. I never thought it. That's very funny. Oh, it's hilarious. For those of you who don't know, the doctor of ministry degree is shortened to demon. So yeah. Which explains an awful lot going out there. So yeah, go to the Ten Commandments in theaters near you. Well, would you stop that? October 19. I'm going to charge charging you for advertising. You got to put a banner up on our website, dude. It's cool graphics. I don't have a banner. I'll give it to you today. You have to pay for it. It's free. We'll have to think about it. I'll have to run past our finance people. Okay. We agree. It's free. So you've been traveling. Where have you been, Wayne? Oh, I was in New York and Pennsylvania. New York and Pennsylvania. Yeah. Just after you ditched the whole Hershey people, you went and saw them? Yeah, that was why I ditched them. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, even they make fun of the chocolate there if they've been to Europe. If you haven't been to Europe, the chocolate's okay. You know, Hershey's all right. If you've been to Europe, then it's just tough to crawl into that. Well, hey, welcome home. Some wonderful people in that area. For my gosh, sixth time I've been there, which is way too much, but I don't usually go to the same place that that many times. But this started as a school board issue rather than a hangout with Jesus people issue. But we also had to hang out with Jesus people. So that was fun. That's cool. And upstate New York was beautiful. It was just beginning shades of fall. Leaves turning colors and all that other stuff. Yeah. Leaves turning color. You know what the leaves do though? Oh, Harry was very warm. He was in the 80s. You know what the leaves turning colors lead to? Death. No, lots of raking. I've been there. Okay. Yeah. Well, lots of raking. My palm trees, they don't give me lots of raking. I know. That's cool. Yeah. I miss it though. I love the color. It wouldn't even mind raking a few leaves if we had some decent color down here now. We don't have it. You get a jump in the leaves. Yeah. But while I was in New York, I met the president of the Brad Cummings fan club. Cool. I don't know who that is. Well, you don't want to know. I don't need to know. No, she's from South Carolina. She came up to visit us in upstate New York. Oh, beautiful. Not just to, but she chewed me out. She said I'm too hard on you. I agree. I agree. I told her you wouldn't even agree with that statement. Thank you. Ladies in South Carolina, appreciate it very much. Just stop it. Keep those cards and letters coming. WayneAtTheGodJourney.com. She said you were almost in tears about chipper dying and I was mocking you. And she said I need to be gentler on you. You do. Because we just lost our two kitties. Now see, that's it. Don't do that. Yeah, we did. It's terrible. Don't make a joke out of it. It's not funny. I had to dig a hole in the backyard. It was not cool. I had three years. You seriously lost your two kitties already. Some parvo virus, feline parvo stuff, they're right at that. We got them in there so little. One of them was the runt and I think she was infected. And unfortunately passed it to the other little kitty. So I had two kitties in them meltdown. And we learned everything there is to know about parvo, feline stuff that they were supposed to get their inoculations for but they weren't of age yet. See, I would think now people who like cats We're going to go for dogs. Would not want the comings to have more cats. I don't. You guys just can't be responsible with them. Wrong. You just stepped into it again. What? The president of my fan club could be after you dude. Whatever. And that's a shout out to my New York friends. We had some fun with the little whatever. I told them I'd give you a little whatever. It's a little inside. Whatever. And we got to play volleyball and we got to talk about the journey and where people are at on it. And that was fun. Cool. And I played golf in Pennsylvania with a guy who's I thought was a little humorous. He's a worship director of a pretty large event. Uh huh. Like about six, seven thousand people. Mega church event. Yeah. Six, seven thousand. Loving it. Loving it. Loving it. They put me in a golf cart with him. I thought I'd try and see where, how deep at the end of the pool you might want to swim in because the people who set up the golf match just said this guy, you know, he's not, he's in a place where, you know, he's really enjoying all the benefits that are coming from his vocation, but at the same time really looking at some interesting perspectives and felt like it was really open. So we were talking about him early on and, you know, what their fellowship is all about. And he was giving me, you know, a religious nuts about the commandment, you know, that love God by your heart, soul, mind and strength. Love your neighbors yourself and talking about how they, that reinforces everything they do. And so as we got out about third or fourth hole, I said, yeah, that scripture you were talking about earlier. He said, yeah, I said, I think that's old covenant or new. Oh, you're playing with him theologically. He goes, well, I'm, it's from the Old Testament, but since Jesus used it, I'm thinking it's new covenant. And I said, yeah, you would think that unless he superseded it with something else. He goes, wow, not even thought of that. And we got out of our carts to hit golf shots. And how did he hit the next one? Did he duff it? No, he did all right. He did all right with that. But we didn't, we didn't talk any more about that. You're serious. He didn't go any further. He just left it in the air. I don't know that he didn't get distracted by the golf shot, but. Did he start walking and you had to drive the rest of the way? No, we were, we were good friends. We were talking, but I, you know, I'm always, you know, I'm not, I'm not for jumping on people in the middle of prayer. When I was 32, which he was, I thought I had all the answers to everything. I thought everything I was doing was perfect. So I've got, I hope I just. Did you put a pinhole in his balloon? No, no, no, no, no, no. It wasn't that. I just drew a little funny face on his balloon. I didn't pop it. It's still there. He's still a happy guy. So what are you getting at? Is older news. It superseded what? Well, I think when. What's the secret esoteric wisdom that you have there, Sir Jacobson? Well, I just, I'm saying in a clear way how that statement, love God with all your heart, soul, mind, strength, love your neighbor yourself. Yes, Jesus uses it, but he only uses it when he's trying to describe what's the epitome of the Old Covenant. The epitome of the Old Covenant. Summarizing the Old Covenant. Is a command to love. Yeah. Which I think is hilarious. I could no more command you to love me than I could command, you know, my dogs to type out the Declaration of Independence. I don't think she could do it. No, neither one of them could do it. It's just an unopposable thumbs or whatever it is that makes that complicated. The point is, love as a command is bizarre. I can't command you to love me. I can't command anyone to love me. I'll try really hard way, but you know how challenging that is. Everybody I know knows how to do it. I can't even hold a gun to your head and tell you to love me. Love me. And you know what? You could pretend to love me. You could act like it as long as I have a gun to your head. But you really, love is not about that. And I think when Jesus gets to John 13, he says, I'm going to give you a new command. And this came up on the forum. I was going to be talking about the Old New Covenant and Nephilim and all the strange stuff you were talking about. Someone thought I was stoned. Someone thought you should be. It came up both ways. Hallelujah. But when Jesus says, I'm going to give you a new command. Now this is, I just want you to go love, but the deal here is different now as you've been loved. So the deal first is you've got to be loved. It's not that I've got to love God. It's that God loves you and you need to come into the reality of that love and affection. When you do that, you're going to know how to turn around and live with other people. And I think that is such a better expression of the New Covenant. Because I'm telling you when I think about how I'm going to wake up today and I'm going to love God with all my heart, soul, mind and strength and love my neighbors, myself. And I don't even know how to start that day. I got to be honest with you. I don't. What does that mean? All my heart, soul, mind and strength. So if I'm working out on my stationary cycle this morning, I'm giving some of my strength to that. So, but, you know, it's just idle in your life. I've been saying this for years. Believe me, I throw it out of my life, but I'm going to the doctor tomorrow for one of those 54-year-old check-up things. Oh, wonderful. They're going to poke and probe in places. You can call me later, tell me how it was. But I think it's so somehow to get an understanding of what it is that Jesus offered us. And it wasn't what we're going to do first for him, which is always the Old Covenant was, here's what we're going to do for you. You know, it's a while and I think this kind of connects in. The other day, I saw this little promo late at night. They're, you know, advertising the Today Show. And they showed a snippet of this dude in, like, old, you know, Testament Hebraic garb. I saw a picture in the paper this time. The year of living biblically, and they made the Ten Commandments. So I perked up because we're in big promo mode. And so I was like, ooh, Ten Commandments. Wow. Little synergy media stuff here, huh? And so I... That's the third mention of the Ten Commandments by the way. We'll get to 12 by the end. It's $100 a crack. Crack smokers can do this. It's all right. In the midst of what's going on, he is... They do this wonderful little interview. Matt Lowers is asking him. And what was so great is it wasn't a negative one. It was sort of positive. But Matt Lowers kind of like, so, how'd it go? You know, were you able... And it wasn't that he did just the big ten. Everyone can kind of do the big ten. It's like, he tried to follow the minutiae. Of what to eat, what to wear, all the last stuff. Yeah, I mean, it was... Not shaving. And I think it was, you know, it was, you know, tongue-in-cheek when they had the background music, it's dun-dun-dun. You just go like, okay, now he's taking it seriously. Nice promo for his book. A little hokey. But the question Matt Lowers asked is like, all right, so was there within this whole year, was there a 24-hour period where you could actually do this? And you kind of... He was asking the, you know, begging the question like, so, you got a day, right? And the guy's response is, no, not one. I was so aware of it. I was so aware of it. I was so aware of it. I was so aware of it. I was so aware of it. I was so aware of it. No, not one. I was so aware of how much I sin. And I lie and I do things wrong every day. And the guy wasn't all like, you know, condemning. He just says, man, what an absolute revelation. I had no idea just how much bad stuff I do every day. And I'm totally aware of that. Wow. And there is this pregnant moment where it's like, oh, that is what that law is supposed to reveal. The darn sucker works great. On your best day. Yeah. You can't do it. And in the midst of it, that pregnant moment that just needed somebody who knew Jesus to kind of jump in and say, ta-da-ha, here's a real value of who this person is. That moment was just totally swept by. I sat there in my living room like, ah, ah, bah, bah. Me, me, call me. I've got a movie I want to promote on The Today Show. No, I did. I called a couple of age of people. I said, get us as a follower. So they're all trying to talk to The Today Show. It's funny. Oh, you didn't use West for that, did you? Yes, I did. You're a dog. You're a dog. First folk call I've made. Oh, beautiful. Oh, my gosh. West, we apologize. Some guys have no restraint. It's working fine. Well, we had some wonderful email about the Freedom Podcast. Yeah? Yeah. That's I did anyway. One time. I did. People obviously don't write you. I declared email bankruptcy a few podcasts ago. Pointless. Well, one thing I thought we'd clear up. Michael in Alberta, one of the guys I went and saw up there, we were talking about them moving from Anglicanism to kind of an independent dealer. He said it would have been a mistake to call their Anglican thing high church, which I think I did, because when you're Baptist, anything with the word Anglican on it. It's high church. I don't care what they're doing in there. They can be throwing mud at each other. And it's going to sound like high church stuff. To all the Baptists, we now apologize for that characterization. So just truth in advertising, we didn't want to let people think they made a bigger jump than they made, but I still think they made some great jumps. Anyway, at the end of his email, he said, he's talking about a basic discipleship course they used to teach all the time. He says, oh my goodness, all made so much sense in light of a twisted power-hungry, narcissistic God who was so legal on every point that one mistake meant being rejected. Oh man, I don't miss those days. Isn't that amazing? Gosh, that's a great statement. If God is, what do you say here? If God is twisted, power-hungry, narcissistic, then that old discipleship program would have worked. A few pastors, I know. But if God's not that, then what are you going to do? You know, I do think that people have sort of like a fundamental confusion as it relates to, I mean, just as simple as the Ten Commandments. It's like, oh, these rules must be really important to God. And it's like, is that what we're supposed to take away? Are we supposed to look at the unveiling of the law, which I think is wisdom. Absolutely. If God's giving us wisdom. And are they important to God? Yes. The objectives of them, yes. But what's the objective? Making us pure like him. But is the law going to accomplish that? No, that's the point. The law's not the process. The law's the ideal. The law's the hope. We've turned it into the big teacher with a big stick beating us over the head every day. I know. And it's like, I think what was brilliant when Jesus said, you know, a new commandment I give to you, he's sort of saying, look, you got to start in your own place of kind of bankruptcy that you can't do this. I'm asking you to do this as it's been done in you. And so he's trying to say it's trying to put a little different gas in your tank. The whole idea of self-effort. I'm going to do this for God. That whole system of man's effort is utterly bankrupt. It doesn't. Utterly. Today's show proved it. But it doesn't change what God wants to produce in us. God wants us to share in His holiness. God wants us to share in the reality of who He is. What I love about what we sort through with the lawyers, okay, well, the law was bad. It didn't work. We throw it out. No, the law shows us God's heart. But it wasn't the process to get there. I can't get there by performance. I've got to get there by knowing Him, being transformed by Him, living life. My friend Dave from the Jikbook says that all sin is simply grabbing for ourselves that which God has not given us. We've talked about that here before. Once love replaces our sense of being unloved, sin loses its hold on us, and we get to participate in the increasing fruitfulness of God's righteousness. So the goal is still the same. The goal hasn't changed. But the process is now something that we actually can participate in and actually can be transformed. Yeah, it isn't, you know, 12 steps to a better me that I can work. It's sort of like, you know what, it's called a new you from the inside out. If this doesn't take as a seed inside gets planted and bears root and start to grow up and give fruit, the reality is unless that transformation takes place and my life really is now being expressed by the power of an indestructible life that's now being lived out of me, it doesn't work. It's just religious fruit and trappings. Yeah, that's why that's why resorting back to rules and rituals is what's something that's just so dangerous for people. Because you can participate in those for years. I sit down with lots of people on this trip who have been some of those passionate believers who've tried to live by every New Testament principle and discipline for years and years and years and at the end of it they're going, I don't know God. I don't know him. I've jumped through all the hoops, taught the Sunday school lessons, Eldered things, been in charge of stuff. And he owes me some blessing is what's the unspoken dynamic is I've been a good boy, where's my stuff? Well some of them at this point are just flat mad they've been lied to that long by people that said they needed to jump through hoops and the hoops would guarantee the result that hasn't guaranteed. So that's been a problem. But don't, I mean in all fairness and I'm not indicting them or to indict myself, I think we lie to ourselves a little bit. It's a whole lot easier to put a little set of goals out in front of me and try to achieve those. No, absolutely. That gives me strokes. Even if I don't have a fan club that's watching. Yeah. And even if I don't keep them all, if I keep more of them than you, I still get to feel better. Yeah. It gives me a sense of achievement, which is in the context of getting to know someone, you don't really look at that in terms of achievement. We have a warped kind of view that we have in our culture that we look on life and I don't think we have a value that is preeminent that places the value on relationship. No, we don't end up with that at all. It's purpose driven this, that and the other and the only friendships that are really valuable are the ones that are in keeping with my purpose. You're just going like, oh gosh, I think people have value in and of themselves. Yeah. In fact, religion makes you somewhat competitors with people. That's why it doesn't produce real deep friendships. It's competitors. If I need something from you, I'm going to get it and when I don't, you're done. We're all competing for God's affection with each other. Who's more spiritual? Who's more theologically accurate? Who's more gifted at X, Y, or Z? It's just crazy. So where do we go for now? Well, I like how Tom goes. Tom from Alabama wrote us. This is a great letter. He said, I love the free indeed podcast. It really spoke to my wife and I. We didn't listen to it until yesterday Monday. It was really good stuff. Now to the funny story. This happened before I heard the podcast. I took a little nap Sunday afternoon and when I got up everybody was gone. Dave plays anyway. And they had gone to practice. So I decided I'd mow my backyard. It takes about an hour with my push mower. I was about halfway done when I saw one of the families from down the street heading to their Sunday night service. I thought, crap. Now they've seen me working on the Sabbath. This is hilarious. Now they've seen me working on the Sabbath, which if you really think about it isn't the Sabbath at all. It's Saturday. Yeah, it's Sunday. So you're fine anyway. But anyway, what are you going to think? Bitch, if they ask. Now that floored me. I sat down on my porch and just shook my head. I can't believe how ingrained some of these legalistic, rule-based habits and thoughts are. And I was there recently too. I would sit in judgment of my neighbors when I saw any of them on a Sunday morning in their yards or skipping church or having a cook out or going fishing, et cetera, et cetera. Where do these things hide? When I thought I had processed through all the legalism, there evidently are still layers that need to be peeled away just me and father. Peel away, papa. Peel away. So I got up, cranked them over and laughed as I continued mowing. Then thinking to myself, I said, I need to email Wayne and tell him that I mow my grass on a Sunday. And that is a huge step for a fellow recovering Pharisee. That's hilarious. Wow. Hey. I mow my grass on Sunday too. Do you really? I refuse to. You don't mow your grass. I think Sarah does. Sarah does. Sarah mows my grass when I'm gone more than a week. But no, I usually do it on Tuesdays. This week it's Thursday. I refuse to give out my weekend. I refuse to give out my weekend of mowing the lawn. I do it at lunch hour on Tuesday or Thursday. Oh, there you go. That's the day the yard doesn't so you feel better than I feel great. Yeah. Marty from Maryland said this. By the way, I love, love, love today's podcast about freedom. We have an email group for home school and God journey folks. But what we seem to have been left with is nothing. It makes me wonder if I had a relationship with the Lord at all. That's what we were talking about earlier. You know, when you see through all that stuff and you ditch it and you say, gosh, all that stuff. I think of Dave Fredrickson's group up in Sacramento when they finally were decentralizing. I said, what? I'm going to have to listen to God for myself. Has it come to that? I don't want to do that. And years and years of walking in it hadn't led them. So we've been having some really fruitful discussion. Very similar what you and Brad talked over. So when the podcast came out today, two of us immediately told everyone, I had it down, at least this one episode and give it a listen. It really confirmed what Father was sharing with all of us on the list. Kelly and I, my wife and I were having a discussion last night and we're talking about some of these things. And she's actually enjoying herself reading through the book. I see what we're doing. That's another hundred for you. I'm sorry. Let's go back to Kelly. Stop. So in the midst of all this, it's like we're talking about, you know, why are, why people are doing what they're doing. And in, even in the context of raising little ones, it's like, it's not as if we're not supposed to, you know, help them understand some of the elemental truths and principles and stuff like that. The biggest sort of carrot or stick most people put in front, as far as to get saved. I said, they're really trying to give people fire insurance. You know, if you don't do this, you're going to go to hell. And it's like, then you need rules because those help reinforce that. See, the reason you're going to hell is you can't do all of these. And so none of this is about the gloriousness of who Jesus is. And the sake that he's worth loving for just who he is. And you just go like, people are getting saved to a person. They think they're getting saved from, oh, fire and brimstone. And you're just going like, gosh, what if that really isn't the point at all? And then what do you do with the rules? Well, the rules aren't supposed to drive you to hell and then scare you to Jesus. But that's how it's used. All the time. And you just go like, and does that make for really great disciples? No, it doesn't. It's for good, well-intentioned rulekeepers that are frightened of this God who's angry at them. And it really scares people from even thinking outside that box of things. Because that's a-battleding you. Yeah, that'll send you back to hell. You could lose your fire insurance now. Yeah. And this, and explains why probably this detox process takes some time. I heard a great new, well, we came up with a great new term for believers that are kind of thinking outside the box of organized repositions. We were actually in a restaurant, and we were looking at the menu. And one of the wines on the menu, which we didn't order because, you know. Okay, your rulekeeper's popping up there. Yeah, I'm a rulekeeper, dude. Man, I don't drink. No, I just don't like wine. Anyway, it said free-range wine. Free-range. And I'm going, how's a wine free-range? I understand what chickens do. So we had a great discussion over free-range grape vines, and we thought, you know, that's probably a better description. Free-range believers. Just free-range believers. Yeah, maybe. We're just free-ranging it, and that's kind of contemporary, and it's kind of a health food thing, and it's kind of me, you're not being raised on fertilizer and herbicides. You're just a free-range believer. So people ask me, where does he go to church? I might just start saying, I'm a free-range believer. Do you give you grape nuts or give you a cowboy hat with that one? You could, but I like the whole free-range thing. I mean, they're all cowboy days and, you know, open-range. Free-range believers, man. Free-range. We got this from Randy and Honduras. I got this morning if that was a wonder. He said, my family and I serve on the mission field. I cannot tell you the journey Father has brought us on, leading us into a great revelation of his goodness and grace. It has blown me away. In our eyes and his nature, more than ever before, I served as a pastor in the States for 24 years before coming here three years ago and boy, am I ever glad to be out. Yee-haw! That sounds like a free-range thing. I enjoy your writings and podcasts. They're fresh streams for us here in Honduras. My goodness. Good stuff. I tell you, this thing goes everywhere. Freedom is a pretty, it doesn't go to China right now. They blocked us there. We are blocked in China. We had to change that. Somebody was just going in and they said, If they can hack future podcasts, I'm sure somebody can get past the Great Wall in China. No? I don't know. I don't know the rules. We need a Chinese person for that. There's some way to block websites coming into the country and they just block it. You can even know how to get to it and you just, it's blocked. What'd you say, Wayne? What'd you do? It wasn't me. I was stoned. No, it was a couple of things. I was worried about nothing or something. And we can make some hype jokes here but I don't think it would be wise at all. No, actually some people were going and they said, can we take some CDs of your podcast stuff in there so we can just pass them around China because they can't get it anymore. We could at one time though. Yeah, we did for a long time and somehow we got on the radar screen for them saying that's a dangerous podcast for people with freedom. I'm probably the word that blows the mind of them Chinese. Do you think that's what most people really want? Freedom? Yeah. Now I get scared into that. Yeah, see, I think that's why being frightened of hell and following rules and working a system frankly for a lot of people is a whole lot more attractive because it is a little bit disorienting to try to just relate to this quote, invisible God. If you don't if you know you kind of don't know him. So what do you say that's going like, okay, I'm getting a free range believer thing. I kind of want out of my pen. I'm recognizing that and it's fruitlessness. What do I do now? You fall on your face. Your face. Falling on my face is good. I do that a lot. That's just a great way to start anything. You ought to tie your shoes, pal. No, that's not the problem. I'm usually not wearing shoes. Particularly out here. So what does someone do? Starting point. I think you just go on a journey with God and you just put your heart before him and you say, God, I'm tired of all the rules. I'm tired of trying to perform everything for you. I'm tired of not knowing the difference between what's true and what's false. And I want you to begin to teach me and I want you to begin to lead me. I want my whole life to be in your hands. And I think it starts exactly where Jesus said it starts. It starts with the God, will you show me how much you love me? Would you begin to make sense of that in my life as I go and I think that's critical without that. Then the Christian life, all the disguise, it's just propositional. We're just, we're still talking principles even if they're, you know, free range principles or out of the box principles. We're still talking propositions and principles and intellectual mind games and trying to wrap my head around this point of view or that point of view. In the end, if it's not a God we wake up to and a God we begin to see and to enjoy and to embrace. It's just this invisible entity. I saw, it was a comic in the pair reading all the old papers since I've been gone the last two weeks and it was one where these two birds were standing in the front walk of a house and the bird just answered the door and said, we'd like to talk to you about the big invisible bird in the sky. I don't think it was a Mormon shot. I think it was I think it was a whole idea of why do you keep talking about this thing that no one can see and no one can know. So we're going to talk to you about the big invisible bird in the sky. I'm not just saying that. It's the funniest thing. That's how it feels to so many people. I love that. Wow. I looked at the little name tags on their little chested feathers but they didn't have no name tags. Oh wow. See but isn't it, the New Testament is so different. You got the you got the Apostles saying you got the name tags on it. You got the you got the Apostles saying hey these are things that our eyes have beheld. Our hands have have touched. These are the things that we're declaring to you. We're not talking about a big invisible bird in the sky. He isn't that so bizarre. But that's how most people feel it. I'm serious because in the whole people get little tastes. I don't know if anybody can say yeah I was like 5 years old or 12 or 18 or 37 or whatever. But for most of us that's not every day. That's not even every year. That's not even every couple of years and so the feeling is it gets to be like okay when I talk about God and Jesus it's like talking about your little invisible friend in kindergarten. You know I get this dude but he is real enough to make himself known and when we pray that kind of prayer that says God would you reveal that prayer that you know gets answered in the next day or two. I think that's a lifetime journey of growing to see what God wants me to see to experience him the way he wants me to experience him and to share that journey with other brothers and sisters and I don't think it's just overnight boy it's all fixed now I'm better but there's that growing. I want to grow in father's affection and the grace that he gives and I want to learn to think like he thinks it takes some time and I'm going to have the tendency to fall off that road now and then back into some rules and things that make me feel fleshly safer. I think the thing that's the biggest challenge is that is a ready available substitute that nearly all the quote end quotes followers are suggesting you do because as opposed to making this sense of I know God for myself and he's real as opposed to making that normative sideline as if well that's kind of that might happen but it's not essential that's right it's like in the meantime follow the rules yeah it's like so you know well we're not so sure about that you can get deceived and so here just follow these rules that is the ready available substitute that is probably the hardest thing to sort of step away from because if you deny their little list they're looking you're not one of us how do you just walk out if if God revealed as a person doesn't become normative and essential again whereas if you read the New Testament the people in there that were saved it didn't seem to me like they were wondering they knew it there was an encounter someplace somewhere that took them from wondering to oh and even people who didn't believe it yet who observed from the outside could see it happening the Simon guy saying give me that gift that you're doing because I could sell this thing I mean that's got to come back where it's like look as opposed to putting a definition of what that is the reality is it's got to become real this is not the make believe invisible bird in the sky yes and living with the living God is not the extra little bonus you get if you're really it is day one experience when I hang out with a group of folks my passion is let's come to know this God let's not figure out church let's not figure out all the little things we want to figure out let's come to know him as a reality and what does that take and how does that reshape my thinking and how do I learn to hear people tell me God never speaks to me well he does we don't hear because we've not tuned into it and that you would think if all our little non free-ranged clubs really understood the essence of the gospel that wouldn't be secondary that wouldn't be other than the first day you're here the first day we interact with you we want to help you come to know the God we know not we want to help you find your place in the pew the work you can do to make you into the ministry to make you we want you to know him and until you do don't even think about doing anything else don't even sweat the other side don't try yeah because we're not setting up another hurdle this is not a new performance treadmill to run on and exercise on this is like you know what there's nothing that you can do to make it happen other than your availability and being unwilling to accept anything less I mean I sort of think that when we choose to say well you know I'm kind of tired and it hasn't happened so I'll just downshift to the principles you may be on that road forever and I don't know that it circles back and it's like you know what don't go down that road just sit there and say God I don't know how to do this I don't know what I'm supposed to do I feel pretty inept I'm not even sure if you were here if I'd recognize it but somehow you've got to come past my inabilities here and make yourself real now is God able I would I would tend to say absolutely 100% I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure whatever insufficiency I have at knowing how to even discern this he's bigger than that exactly and it's just being unwilling to accept accept any other substitute and I guess a big hurdle for people then would be the disappointment is why hasn't happened before now for me especially if I'm someone that's been after it for even a few months or years and I think that's or if I've been really I think I'm biblically astute and I've got this going and that going why isn't it for me why don't I know what you guys are talking about yet and I think that disappointment is a big hurdle for somebody but if it's there it's just I don't know if there's an answer to it just don't I was like don't worry about it just don't you focus on why it hasn't happened yet wake up today and say God let's start today fresh and let's see how this begins to make itself real in me Well there is something that Jesus said to you know I think it was John the Baptist disciples and blessed are you who keep from stumbling over me it's like to some degree that sense of disappointment that sense of wait why didn't happen for me I mean John here's John in prison going like I'm not sure this is really in Messiah I don't get why I'm in prison and what's you know and Jesus gives his calling card for Messiahship all these things are happening but the reality is but John I'm not delivering you from your prison if anyone deserved to be delivered from their little predicament I would think John would be at the top of this greatest born among women he was like wow well in the midst of that I do think there's there's an element of you know what I have to come to God kind of empty and that means laying aside your disappointment as well I don't have an answer for but I know it's real it is a huge stumbling stone for a lot of people they just go like and it's like you know what I don't know how to answer that one for you the only one who could would be the one you're disappointed in it's kind of like looking through that not whole of our pain and not being able to get enough grasp on who he is and I think that's that was a theme in the shack and I I think that that's true whether it's our disappointment whether it's our pain whether it's whatever it's God's gonna work all that out and somehow I don't know that he works all that out first I think he makes himself known in spite of all that and then begins to unravel it and then you get to be a free ranger thank you for traveling with us on The God Journey you can be part of the conversation by visiting our website thegodjourney.com