Enjoying Real Relationships — http://thegodjourney.com/wordpress/2008/05/14/enjoying-real-relationships/

It's now time to think outside the box of what we've always known. I myself will tend my sheep, and have them lie down, declares the sovereign Lord. I think that's a profound turning point in somebody's relationship with God. And our hope in starting this was that this would become an ever-expanding conversation. Just two real guys talking about life, that's a nice tagline. I'm Wayne Jacobson. And I'm Brad Cummings. And welcome to another edition of The God Journey. New listener to The God Journey. Probably the youngest one. Who? Oh, my daughter. They like turning on the podcast, sometimes over lunch at their house. And her and Amy give it a listen. And in fact, when we told the story- And he's here in Paw Paw. Remember that plane that landed a little hard, that old lady's walking off the plane and she says to the pilot, did we land this thing or did we crash? Julie said she expelled lunch all over the table. And she, hilarious. And Amy looked at her like whatever. But they've gotten so used to it. I talk about being grandpa on there and everything. The other day Julie just turned it on and Amy was down playing in her bedroom. She comes right down the hall. Are we going to listen to grandpa? Aw, man. How fun for you, huh? Amy, a shout out for you, darling. I love you so much and I'm going to tell you, why don't you just turn to your mama right now and say, why don't we get in the car and go over and visit grandpa? That'd be cool. There you go. That'd be cool, Amy. So that's all right. All right. I think I last night thought you wanted to share this t-shirt with you, Brad. So I'm going to give you this t-shirt. No way. Oh, this, oh, this is outrageous. Okay. This is a little turn on the bracelet. As opposed to what would Jesus do? This glorious t-shirt says who would Jesus kill? Oh, God. WWEJK. Got a picture of Osama, Jim Coneal. And what's the Iranian dude? And then who's the... A minute job. I think I must be the Venzuelan dictator guy, probably. Oh, yeah. Oh. That's probably him. Yeah. And Jesus got a gun. He's pointing at that. He's got a gun. He's looking at us for America's foreign policy. Now, okay. Backstory. I don't get this. I do get this, but I don't get this. This scares me. Well, it is a little scary. It's a conversation starter t-shirt. Could be a conversation killer there, pal. Oh, it could be. Well, he said it's not... I don't know what Jesus killed. I'm not sure that that conversation would go very far. And it would certainly not start off friendly, I would think, with most people. I'm sure there are some... Well, I would think that some people would agree with, you know, at least one, two, three. Well, even as our country is out there killing people, in God's name for justice and liberty and all, doing it under the mantle of, I think it's a political stab at, wow, who would Jesus be killing if he were head of our government, and commander in chief of our armed forces and all that good stuff, it's provocative to say the least. That's a provocative shirt. I wonder where I could wear this. And what's the time? That's a nice shirt. It is a very nice shirt. It's on the website in Casefields. CitizenKingdomCitizen.org or something. www.KingdomCitizenship.org. Yes, you can get one of those if you want. Take a look at it. Wow. I'm not sure you can get the snot bead out of you somewhere in the journey, but... I tell you. Wild. So that's a new listener. Amy's a new listener. Amy's our new listener. She's sweet. Hi, Amy. Oh, she's a doll. Lovin' her. Got to say that. Three-year-old, four-year-old. She's driving her mom nuts, but I'm lovin' it, man. You know what's so cool is, I mean, we're not too far removed from a three-four-year-old. Taylor's six, but the growth and development, and almost the settling in to the world, it's like when you're three or four, you get this constant look of wonder and scanning the horizon. Everything's new, and it's like, now when they're about six or so, there's like, there's a settling in, and there's just a different dynamic. There's a comfortability with their life and a little bit of the routine, and there's not a lack of wonder, but there's just, I don't know, it's interesting. Interesting time. My favorite time with kids was always that two to three to four thing that, oh, I missed that. I always wanted to have three more kids, just as our youngest was growing out of that stage, but they're fun now too, and they're fun having the little kiddos hanging out with Amy, so that was fun. Go pop all. Yeah, it's good stuff. So we signed on with New York, eh? Yeah, I think somewhere about now there would be probably a press release someplace, I think. Yeah, yeah, we finally, not something we really want to talk a whole lot about here, but we finally found a partner to publish with, and take some of the heavy load lifting for us, so we can... My life maybe in a couple of weeks will be really, really lighter, it'd be awesome. And what's wonderful about this is we'd really do feel like we found a team. We found people who care about what we want to do at Windblown. We don't need their approval to do what we want to do. You and I were all over the map. We almost just didn't even do this, and I think the thing that I'm so excited about is a belief that people that we're connecting with, they really get this, and I think it's deeply touching them, and they're saying yes to the desire to say, gosh, how do we help this message of who God is? See the last podcast. And how he loves us. They really have a desire to have that interact with the culture, and they're saying, we've got a vehicle to help make that happen, we're at your disposal. That's what's mind blowing to me. Yeah, with all the creative control still resting here. We can write the books we want to write, publish the books we want to publish. We can have them help us at whatever dimension we want their help, but they're not going to interfere with us. But they're not there to shape the message to fit the marketplace. Can I dance? Oh boy. I mean, this is... Did you, in your wildest imaginations, think that a couple years ago when you and I pulled off of what we were doing to focus in on helping a friend with something that it would lead to this? Are you kidding? No, I mean, it's mind blowing every day for me. I just go like, what? This is why people always ask me about, you know, planning and our five year plan and all those kind of things. And I just... You didn't see it anywhere in the horizon. All the best things in my life I never saw coming. Really, truly. All the best things in my life. Yeah. The whole idea that we're bright enough as humans to plan and to strategize and to bring about a master plan that will change. I'm going to get me in the right place at the right time. Yeah. I was with somebody... Like you could. I was with somebody last week that's in the middle of that, master planning, a strategy to get their ministry into the public, whatever. And I'm like, yeah, I'm going, okay, this is totally waste of time. I mean, I think the good thing is it will preoccupy you for a couple years so you won't feel so bad about what you're not doing. Because we love planning. We love rearranging. Won't stop God from sneaking up on you in a good way. Oh, no, that's true. And I get you distracted. At least you're planning. But to think that we have the... You know what we do have the freedom to do. And I think somebody's talked about this in terms of successful people even in worldly terms are not people who had a great plan and go made it happen. They're people who can respond to what's happening in the moment in constructive and fruitful ways. And I tell you, my life is totally being lived there now. And for the type A guy I grew up with that could plan plot, loved it, scheme things out. And people say, oh, this must be a torture for you. I'm going, oh my goodness, that was a torture. Back there, trying to figure it out. Trying to make circumstances the way that fit into my plan. That's true. Because... That was the torture. What we live under the illusion of is somehow our ability to manipulate those. If you're at all successful or whatever, you somehow might get caught by the illusion that I really do have control over so many of those elements. When the truth is, you have precious little. You have precious little. But I tell you, people are easy to manipulate if you know how to do it. It's just that you have to keep doing it. You have to keep manipulating people. And at some point, that doesn't bother you. That's exhausting. It doesn't worry you out. Something's wrong with you. But if it doesn't bother you, something else is wrong with you. And that's where God bothered me into this reality, I think. Some of our discussion, I think with the new team that we're going to kind of be getting to walk alongside for a bit. And that'll be fun. But I've heard a lot of resonance with our conversation with Paul a couple of weeks ago. And people, like our friend that was at Fuller Seminary, just, oh, I want to be part of it too. I want to have connections like this. And we got this little note that I thought was kind of interesting. This is on the forum, actually. He says, the comment was made about two podcasts ago, sometimes we don't have the close relationships with others, because in our own brokenness, we may be pushing others away. I think this is something we're talking about. And she gives a big, hmm, my husband and I don't have the close relationships with others as Wayne, Brad, and Paul seem to have. And I would really like to. It's causing me to ask, Father, what am I contributing if anything to this lack of relationship? I can tend to be more introverted than extroverted. So it's part of my personality, maybe. And perhaps I'm somewhat guarded, but I don't want to be looking too long and hard in words, but I'm open to God showing me something in my makeup that might need a makeover. Isn't that cool? Yeah. That is cool. You know what? I don't know if we said this on the podcast with Paul or we did it at some time and are talking out at Fuller Seminary, but somewhere in the course of the couple of days with him, Paul mentioned something that I just, I thought was brilliant. I'd never heard before, but I've kind of gone to school about in terms of meditating. He talked about in his own kind of context that he wasn't able to hear other people's observations as if they were just that. What he was hearing was value statements and they were killing him because they couldn't just say, gosh, you're not doing that right. Is that just an observation that there might be a better way to do it? About something as basic as doing dishes and laundry or something like that. He was hearing them as he's a terrible person. He's all wrong. They were all value statements. You're worthless because you didn't know separating whites from colors in the washroom. Yeah. And it's something as simple as that. And I think most of it would sort of pass out. I don't know. For whatever thing, I was in the frame of reference when I heard that it was like a light bulb came on and I just went, oh my lands. I've never thought of the distinction, but sort of going to school on it the last week or so, I just have to go like, gosh, I'm going to listen through a lens of just going like, okay, observations. Now, some of them are truly value statements. Some of them are unkind. But when I call you a stupid idiot, it's not an observation. That's a value statement. But it's hope. Can we say an accurate value statement? It's hope. The reality is if you're able to kind of step back and not live out of the sort of, I mean, because I think what pushes us there is our well of insecurity. If you can live outside of that and just listen, gosh, relationship is so much easier. Well, I like what Paul was sharing about that too, saying, not that I think I'll choose to live differently. My brokenness left me stuck there. Without an option. I couldn't hear it any other way. Yeah. And it's the healing that God brings that allows us to live outside of our insecurities. But I think that's that reality. Our insecurity is a huge barrier to having open, full, free relationships. Yeah. I mean, you know, my son Jared's 13. That's a really challenging age for all of life. I mean, so many of the relationships he's in, you're just, you're looking at it and all I'm seeing is just rank challenges of people living with their insecurity. They're reacting right left and center to each other. And I'm trying to love him into a place of just going like, look, I have no hope of my necessarily being able to do anything outside of you. But if I can love and relate with you in such a way that you're rooted and grounded and in your security, you can hear them different. They may still say all the same things and who knows what they mean behind them. And I think that junior hires are not always the kindest animals on the park. They are always value statements. Yeah. But the reality is, is I don't, it can be water on a duck's back. I don't not have to be destroyed by the statements of others. If I can live in the security of being loved, yeah, I don't, I mean, they may impact me. I may not enjoy them, but I don't have to be destroyed. I think the real question out there is, where do you and I get our value? I think most of us don't know where to get it. And so we're constantly trying to get it from each other. And that doesn't always work out so well. All the world raises us to think our value is based in our performance, job performance, our income level, yeah, all that stuff. And we've taken that on, or we take on the value of just what other people say around us, that that really is a comment on me. And we haven't found out what this God Journey podcast does over the long haul of people is to help them get their value established in the father's affection for you. You're worthy because he loves you. He made you. He cares about you. You're talking about the last part. Here he is. That little chocolate nugget inside the hard candy shell. He made you something wonderful. And sin has twisted it all up. Other people's comments, peer pressure, all the things that manipulate us into living in our brokenness, that's ruined that beautiful worthiness. But it's still there. Yeah. And if we can let God, if we can let God start loving up on that and living in the reality of who God has made us to be and God gets to untwist things. I know for me, I use, I use this all the time. I'd teach a sermon on Sunday morning. Everybody in the building never happened, but told me is the best sermon never heard. One person criticized it on the way out. I would live with that criticism all week long. I mean, I really did live my life for the approval of others. The perils of perfectionism. And one criticism would devastate me, now I love the space I live in now. I love going. I was with the folks in New England and I don't know a bunch of strangers again. I don't know. I'm at the end of the day. They may think I'm nuts. They may not like me. That's actually happened a couple of times. What I know now about that going in is I have the chance to get some wonderful friendships here. It may turn dark and ugly, but and they may at the end of the weekend think I'm the biggest jerk on the planet and why did we invite him out here? But the fact is, I know I'll crawl on an airplane the next morning and I won't be one bit diminished in who God made me to be on the planet. Even if they all turn against me now and I've been through, like I said, a couple of episodes of that, I live in such freedom now that yeah, I want you to like me. But if you don't, I'm complete without it because the completeness comes from in him. See, you know, it's so interesting. You look at the journey we're on and it's like, okay, by all rights and measures, we're a couple of successful publishers. Now. Now. I don't feel any more valuable today than I did when I was digging ditches. It's interesting. Some of the people reacting to me now are like, oh, we're so happy for him. And they mean it well. Yeah. But it's as if the truth is in the way in which they're relating. They didn't call me when I was in the ditch. They weren't calling. Oh, we're so proud of you. I mean, it's there was nothing to be proud of in their estimation. I'm just going, exactly. You know what? This is all of this is take it away and I'm fine. But it's all false. That's what you're saying. Yeah. Because it doesn't make me a more valuable person. Some achievement that I might be associated with, or maybe I even helped along the way. Or your name's in USA Today. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, I got the, you know, faxes galore coming in like, you know, got to memorialize your moment of fame. You're just going like, no, I really don't think I need to. But thank you. And you just go like, suck it for all it's worth. I really got there. 10 minutes of glory. And it's like, gosh, if that made me who I was, wow, you'd be in a precarious place like the stock market that is not about real value. It's about perception. And if the world is having a fearful day, sell, sell, sell, because it's plummeting. You know what I mean? It's like, I don't want to be in that place where my value fluctuates according to even my own perceptions of what's going on. I want to be rooted and grounded in the knowledge of who God is and that I am loved. And take it all away tomorrow. And we're still the same folks. Yeah. As Paul says, I have everything that matters is good. Yeah. And that was before any of the success of the shack or any of that took off. It's just, it's a statement of, of completeness in him. And I actually love that reality and being at rest simply in who you are and the relationships God's put before you. I actually had a man this week, in fact, it's one of the people that work at our new partner publisher, but said, I would love to hear what you would raise been reading. He loves me. He said, I would love to have you write a book on success because I think you'd talk about it away very differently than anybody else would talk about it. Yeah. And I'm thinking, gosh, the last thing I'd want to do is write a book on success because it's so false in our culture. But the more we were talking about it, I'm thinking, you know what? I actually have a place now. What I would really want to say about success, what people would call sour grapes who really are successful. It's because you've never had a book out there. You've never, you've never, you've never. And there's a lot of reasons people would say I've not been successful. But what's happening with the shack and Lindblown Media now actually gives me a place to say, no, this isn't it. And yes, I've had a taste of it. And it still isn't it. But success is deeply grounded in our faithfulness to God's work in us and the relationship we have with the people closest to us. That's really what success is all about. Yeah. When you think of how that, that one issue for so many people and people that, you know, have the clamoring all their life to quote, taste that, and you just go like, gosh, what a vain pursuit we're just going like, I don't think the payoff is going to be what you think it is. Because I mean, all the years like I was going to college in Malibu, Pepperdine, great, wonderful place to go to college. I mean, why not? I'm playing a little tennis guy with some of the wonderful Richard Famis. What a wonderful lesson to realize that, you know what, all the, we would look upon them with jealous envy of going, oh, if I could only have what they have. When you get some of these people in their quiet moments and they got empty loneliness that they're looking at some little guy that doesn't even have a bank account and going, if I could only have what you have, I got to tell you that threw me for a loop. Before I had any wisdom about what even was what, you're just green horn, learn about life. They're looking at me going, I wish I had what you had and I'm looking at what they have going, well, we could try it. We could swap. I'll take your car, your house, your income. But it was a wonderful eye-opening lesson to just go like, gosh, things are not as they seem. That is not, my bank balance doesn't bring security, doesn't bring happiness. Yeah. It's not rooted and grounded in those things. If you're not whole without it, you won't be whole with it. That's the point. It's often, as Jesus said, harder to find when you have all the goodies to distract you and there's so many ways to bury your loneliness with all kinds of entertainment options and busyness options and the people that will suck up to you if you're perceived successful. You'll have no end of friends, air quotes, people who will suck up to you because they've got something now to get off of you. It's amazing how our world has built a system that is so false and yet it celebrates with such abandon. And we get sucked into, quite frankly. I like the fact that us talking about our relationship has stirred a hunger in people for you and Paul and I. But the fact is, I don't want to say truth and everything, I want to say this. This is about as good as it gets. Most of our life, we've not known friendships like this. We've all three of us sitting here have been betrayed by very, very close friends to very large financial realities. You've been lied about. Deep loyalty long term. I walked alongside you. Yeah. Reputations destroyed and for us to end up in a friendship like this. And what I've sensed in it, it's not been all better roses. We've had some very intense conversations, some very intense misunderstandings. But we've continued to come back to saying I value the relationship above anything that comes off of the relationship. So we've managed to get back there. But I want to tell folks. I think what we're talking about here isn't something well everybody should have. It's the fruit of something that's been brewing for a long time in all of our lives. And yes, we're enjoying it. And yes, we hope others go, man, I want to, if there's ways that I'm not engaging relationships healthfully and God's changing more in me so that I can walk alongside some other folks, that'd be great. Because I'd say there's nothing like walking in deep friendships that mean something that aren't manipulative and that are really held kind of open handedly. I'm not getting something from you. I'm just enjoying the relationship. Yeah, I think one of the essential elements of anything that we're enjoying right now in terms of relationally, it's because I don't think either of us or with Paul is asking the question, what do I get out of this? I think there really is a servant component of what do I bring? How do I serve these brothers? I am deciding I love and how can I serve the relationship? And do we get something out of it? Oh, yeah, sure. But if that starts to be the focus, you start to behave different in ways that don't build this up. We can tear it down. If I come at this, because I think so often times people that are lonely, people that are very much aware of their need, they sometimes have a hard time living life operating out of a different well. They're really in that place of I no longer trust that God's going to take care of me or He's going to provide for me. So I'm kind of having to do this self-sufficient thing where I'm going to do it for myself. And so the question is, what do I get out? And that's not everyone, but I just know that, gosh, that makes the kind of relationships that I think are the more satisfying ones. If I come into this as a servant of the relationship, going like, you know what, I'm going to prefer the relationship over the purpose-driven outcome. I think I get to enjoy the relationship in a way that I otherwise wouldn't. And I want to go back to how these began, too, because people think, you know, we just found each other, resonated, started doing stuff together. And, you know, same with Paul, the fact is nine years ago, we didn't even know each other. And there was always a first meeting, always strangers that got together, took the risk to get together. You and I had lunch. Paul and I had lunch. Out of that risk came something that resonated and said, yeah, let's pursue it again. Let's do something else. Let's get together again. Let's just let the friendship grow. Never did it start with, boy, we could do this together. It was never a tasking reality, not for you, not for Paul. And then this all fell into, the podcast kind of fell into place. That's something we really orchestrated into being, but something we had desire for and the door opened and then closed and. I got an invite to kind of be considered for a radio thing. And at the time in my life, I'm just going like, you know what? I have no desire to do that by myself. The only other person I could think of is, hey, hey, Wayne, would you like to? And we didn't end up going down that road. And then you had a different little easier idea, like, hey, how about we not get involved in all of that? Why don't we just do this? And it's like, wow, talk about brilliance. So maybe somebody heard God. Why don't we go to where our audience is instead of broadcasting in a city where we're totally unknown? That would make a little more sense. Because there's a willingness to sort of share and there's an intentionality about, guess what? I don't want to do this alone. So I'm going to have to open my doors and, you know, you because no, not interested that you run the risk of rejection every time you do that. Not even a hostile rejection, but just I think for every friendship that becomes good and enduring. I've probably spent time with 25, 30 people that just was lunch. Yeah. And we had a good time at lunch. But the relationship didn't, it's whatever reason. I can't relate to everybody I have lunch with. Right. And I think part of the problem is people are waiting for the perfect friend maybe to walk up to the front door and knock and say, hey, I'd like to be your friend. But I just, it never happens that way. There's some things I do that absolutely irritate you, aren't there? Oh boy. I mean, you could actually get on a long list of things that are just the way I'm wired is very different than you. There's still a specific form I'm waiting for to walk in this office. You're asking me to make decisions. One day it'll come. Maybe it won't, maybe it never will. But the reality is, is you know what? Plus I'll be there at 9.30 means really 10.15. I know, I know. And I'm working on all those things. But you know what? You still love me. There must be things about me that drive you nuts. Oh, absolutely. That you're wanting this, that, that. I mean, this is reasonable, very rational. We could have a fight over. I don't disagree. Let's take it outside, dude. But the reality is, as much as that is, and can we have tense moments where that's painful? Yes. But you still love me. And I know that. And you take the time to say it in a way I can hear it, even when I might be reacting in a way that makes it hard for me to hear. You have pressed past those things and communicated in a way that says, guess what? This is really important. You need to know I'm for you and I love you. And I gotta tell you, I couldn't put a price tag on the value of that. Absolutely, yeah, I hear you. And if you didn't persist in communicating it, guess what? I might not have heard it. And we might not be in the dimension of where we're at. And I think, I know there's been times where I'm just going like, gosh, I'm not understanding. I don't get this. But here's what I do know. I love you. I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you man. But the reality is, I don't think, you do have to press into those things. Those are some things you're just going like, guess what? I've gotta set everything else aside. And I'm going to say, I'm gonna place a value on this that exceeds whatever else I'm gonna extract from it. And if you don't do that, I don't think you end up enjoying the fruit of being able to be in a secure friendship. Yeah, and we have to take some risk for that to happen. Yeah. The relationship, I think mostly we will go through life and hope friendships happen. And they did ease you. I mean, when Sarah and I went to college and you're in a dorm for three weeks, you have friendships that seem like they're 20 years old. Oh, it's like summer camps. Because you live together and friendships grow fast. When you're out in the real world and you're working and you've got your own home situation to help those relationships happen, I think you just have got to really put yourself out there. You gotta go. You gotta go to play, you hear about, we heard about a home group meeting over in Simi Valley. Well, Sarah and I aren't really looking for a house church in Simi Valley to go to. But we looked for people to know, and we went over there. We've been over there now five or six times and are really enjoying, and they stopped being less a home church. They're just more a group of people that get together and we find ourself wanting to hang out with them a lot. Now I've been to a lot of those kinds of meetings since I've moved here. Most of them have been disappointed. You go once or twice and you're going, okay, well, you know, whatever their journey they're on, I'm not on that same journey. I'm not as excited to hang out there. But part of it is I have lunch with a lot of people. I fly around the world, I meet with tons of people, and it's out of that that some of these great relationships take hold. But not all of them do. And they don't have to. I don't think that I choose the better ones. Like there's people that I've been with in the past. I think are probably better people than you. And people I know now. It just, that didn't resonate some way. God wasn't in that in the same way that he's been in this. And I think what makes it work is you and I continue to make that first. Whatever we task together is secondary. And yet where the trouble comes is when that ever flops over and the tasking is more important than the friendship. Exactly. And I think if Paul and Barnabas had seen that when the fight over John Mark, we talked about it a couple of weeks ago, they would have been able to sit down and have the conversation. Why do I see this differently than you do? And maybe it's God's doing something different. Not you're an idiot because you disagree with me. Which is where they got to opposite. I'm paraphrasing because that's not there. Well said. Well said. I think that's an issue. I don't have time to do this right now. Let's try a little bit. Sean wrote a letter. Kind of dovetails of what we're talking about here. He said, I would like to say how appreciative I am of what God has used you guys to create and continue. The podcast, the forum, work on the shack, especially the podcast. I enjoy very much throwing that bad boy on my iPod and driving to work in the morning with a coffee in one hand and my annoying little earbuds in my ears. I think that's illegal in most states to drive with those earbuds in you. It is, uh-oh. Yeah, I did too. They got a little device you can plug your iPod into. Play it right through your radio. It's fabulous. Allowing me to listen in on your conversation has been a lighting challenge and just playing fun. I'm writing though. It's gonna take us to the woodshed here. The boy's a concern that has surfaced in me recently with your podcast discussions about church. So he's a firm in us. He loves this. Very cool, but you guys are gonna whack on. I feel that you might not, you might only be telling half of Papa's story. Okay, let's do the half. And I'm thinking if we're getting half of Papa's story. That's good. That's really true. Yeah, boy, I'm telling you what's. That's pretty good. I've been a lot longer in the past. I know that. I know I've told probably the fifth of Papa's story, but anyway. I agree. Possibly giving your listeners an unbalanced version of the truth on the subject of the church or ecclesia is not only used in ancient writings as the church universal, but it's also many times used as the church local. Did you know this? Yes. I knew this too. Or the church in a house, the church in a certain city. Biblically, if we are honest, it's both. Okay, no problem. My heart goes out to many of your listeners who have left the club and are as lonely and directionless as ever. Oh, he didn't use the same word. No, he didn't. Okay. That's interesting. That's okay. We've left the club and are lonely and directionless as ever. It's like you're letting people out of a desert prison in the middle of a desert. But not pointing them to the healthy nomadic tribes in all directions. They were bound in prisons, getting fed and kept alive, but were prisoners of a system nonetheless. You have helped free them from the bonds of prison or religious performance, but you have sent them out to wander in the desert. You point them to Jesus, but don't put much stock in Jesus' local body everywhere. Well, who do you think of that? There's some fundamental questions. Well, no, there's some questions I would have. It's like, okay, let's just take the analogy. We're freeing people from a desert prison and we're letting them out, but then we're supposed to identify a nomadic tribe that they're supposed to go hang out with. I would presuppose my knowledge of that tribe in thinking that that was exactly where this individual person that I don't know should hang out and just sort of confer the fact that there's people over there, so go be over there. There's people all over this flippin' planet. You can love any of them and you should be in relationship with them just because they gather in more, yeah. Again with the shoulds. Okay, sorry. Again with the shoulds. I got my, I got shoulds all over here. Okay. Stop shittin' on me, dude. Okay, you can just about love anybody in front of you and I kind of would look at this as, you know what? If maybe we stopped with our little defining of these are the validated ones and these are the rest and you simply love the people around you, seems to be in Ephesians that God is setting living stones together. I asked the first question in terms of where I should be fellowshiping. God, who have you set me next to? Not which group has the best worship, which club has the nicest facilities, who does the best program down there? Or has the most relational gathering? Yeah, but who have you set me next to and am I bearing witness of you involved in any of this? And I've just started as opposed to going and searching. I just stopped searching and opened my eyes to where I was and I'm loving those people. And personally, I'm finding that to be a glorious hoot. It's working. Yeah. And I'm experiencing fellowship and the community and God's a part of that. And I think we're encouraging other people to say, I don't think you can list this podcast long. And if we are communicating, what Sean's suggesting here, by not pointing people to specific local churches, whether they're house church or building church or whatever, that we're somehow leaving people directionless. I'm not really there. I think what we're saying to people is, come and know the living God away from that religious obligation. As you're being loved by him, look around you. You're gonna find people to love, some just in the world that need to be loved that won't be family. You're gonna find other folks that are on this page in family. And I do hear people that are lonely, but like we said last week, and someone wrote me this, I loved it, just continued, just listened to the latest God Journey thing, and it was good. You were talking to Paul Young and touched on something that I needed to hear. That is that it's okay if God has led me into a time of being alone. Actually got a bit teary when you brought it up because you changed the subject to do it. And it's exactly where I'm at. I did feel this was what he was doing, though I struggled to hear him often. And the times when God does, we've invested so much in other relationships to be God to us, that we haven't let God be God to us. Oh, well said. And I think God wearies us of that, which is a good thing. And so some of that loneliness, I don't think it's a bad thing. If I'm just feeling lonely because I'm losing my dependence on people and re-seeing it in Christ, that's a good thing. But I think we've always also said, God's gonna, this is a family. The greatest stuff in the kingdom goes on in collaboration with brothers and sisters who walk alongside each other and see things God's asked them to do and do it. And Sean talks about kind of a house church setting that they fell into pretty quickly with people of like heart and mind and really enjoying that. And boy, where that happens, bless you, bless you, bless you. We, fabulous stuff. I think everybody out there who's on this journey is not wanting to be alone. They're wanting to have these kinds of relationships. But I do think what we would encourage is, yeah, pull yourself out there. Where does God want you to hang out with people? Absolutely. There may be a house church and maybe a building group near you that you hang out with and allows you to meet people and love people. We've always championed that. I guess what I would say in response to Sean is I would want that direction not to come from me. Here's how you should do this. Exactly. I want it coming from the Holy Spirit within them. I don't think I'm the traffic cop. And 1 Corinthians 14 or 12 says it so well, the Holy Spirit will set you in the family as he desires. That seems the active agent is not me. The active agent would be him. He has already probably, I like what you said about living stones around you. He's probably already got me exactly where he wants me. Near the people he wants me near, I just haven't seen them yet because what we talked about earlier in this podcast, I live more self-focused and self-absorbed that I'm missing that. And you know what? And I think being outside of, quote, the religious structures and system for a while, I never recognized how much I thought in terms of who's in and who's out and who's valid, who's not, who's part of the home team, who's part of the enemy. And now it's like, I look at people with the sense of going like, is there anyone on this planet in whom something of God's glory was not invested? Is there anyone that's totally void of his creative hand? He, they're his child. They may not know that. There may be no relationship. There may not be theological salvation. And they be overwhelmed by evil at the moment. But the reality is, is there anybody that God has allowed life to happen on planet Earth that he hasn't invested some of his glory in? And my premise is there isn't anyone. So I can go on a treasure hunt every day to discover what of the beautiful treasure of God's creation has he invested where? And how do I get to enjoy the discovery of that? Maybe it's even illuminating the very person I'm talking to to the fact that that's true. That's totally different and very accessible. I do think that so oftentimes people are making the wrong conclusion that where they are is not where they should be. We're always wanting to be someplace else. And it's kind of like, maybe, maybe God is just since he lives and dwells inside you, maybe you have everything that you need right there to start the journey to wherever he may lead you. But as opposed to that sense of just how lost are you? Maybe one glimpse from being found. Yep. Let us not forget, Sean finishes, that there was the early church's custom even in Gentile cities to gather together on a weekly basis to share the Lord's table, pray for one another and minister to and edify one another. This seems to have been the life and breath of the first century church. And to me is the very foundation of our life with Papa. Just want to encourage you guys to encourage your listeners to wait on Papa to show from the right time to start participating in a house slash simple church nearby or simply form one themselves. Okay, I was almost there with him. Yeah, me too. I was almost there. It's like, you know what, don't form something, don't necessarily have to join something, but the people, the community around you, everything you said there, I think that is, we're meant to be a corporate people. Yep. I think God desired for us to be lonely and isolated. I think he wants to set us within his bigger family and be about that. When I always hear somebody's trying to form a house church, simple church thing, I usually get that email, hey, we're thinking about forming so and so here, what can you give us to do? I usually go back and say, don't. So Sean, you're probably not gonna appreciate this. I agree with what you said about it, it becomes the church's custom to gather together. So probably God's table to celebrate each other, to test together as God would give us to test together. But I also think there's a reality that grows out of relationships rather than it's imposed as a model on relationships. So I always say- That's well said. I always say, so you wanna start getting together regularly and learn how to care for each other. Have fun. Glad to do something fun. As children in God's family, learn to care for each other. And just as you learn that, once you start forming a house church, simple church, you've already laden it with an agenda that may or may not fit what's going on. And I honestly think this is true. I had this conversation last night. I was reading through the minor prophets of late. How often God says I'm gonna scatter my people, scatter my people, scatter my people. And then there's other passages about, and I will gather them together again. And I honestly, this is about as close as I get at times to feeling a heartbeat from God's voice and things like this. I do feel like we're in a time of scattering. I do feel like God is scattering people away from our false gods of religious institutions that we served more than Him. We got false notions of who God is. And that God is scattering his people. So they'll find Him again. And then I believe God's gonna regather those people, but He's gonna gather them in a way that's more healthy and whole. It's not, oh, they're scattered. We must gather. I mean, I know all kinds of brothers I meet in this body that are carrying lumber to build fences in their corner of the pasture. And I'm like, you know, they may have an emergent tag on them or a simple church tag on them, but they've got their lumber and they've got a corner of the flock. They're gonna get their sheep pinned. No, they're gonna get it built. And I just like, I'm saying, why are we doing this? God really can gather His people together. And I think we will see. We don't see it now, so we pan it. If God's not doing it, we certainly should. Instead of, you watch, you watch over the next five years the way God begins to connect brothers and things like we've had through this whole shack team experience, there's gonna be ways that God just knits people together. His relationships bear fruit. And we're gonna see, I'm not there. And we could say about that, well they gather regularly, they share the Lord's table, they do some things like that, but it's not we formed a meeting to fulfill an obligation. It's that our relationships have produced a way of living together that will be incredibly wondrous at God's working. Yeah, you look at the images of shepherd and their sheep and all that other stuff in the Middle East and stuff like that. What's different than in that culture versus like America? America, you got pens. You got fences, you got boundaries, you got all you know, and we got, you know, they're congrades there and it's like they're defined. Those are mine. Yeah. In those communities, it's like there's a relationship between the shepherd and the sheep. They all come to the watering hole, they all mix and mingle, they're all there. And then when their shepherds go off in different ways, they have a call and guess what? Their sheep follow. And you get the versus is my sheep know my voice. They are not gonna follow the voice of another. What's the difference between living in pens? And those are mine, whether they know me or not. And a life of relationship where there is a knowledge between sheep and shepherd, which is like, guess what? That ain't us human guys. It's like that free range. We got that little shirt we're working on. Just about ready to release ideas. It's a little sheep outside. Brilliant. I love it. There's a pin over here and a pastor here and just this free range of believer and it's a little sheep on the outside. And then, and now what people want to do with that little free ranger? Put them in another pin. What? We'll just build a pin around that one. And so next time I see a guy walking by me with some lumber. Knock a bell. I'm gonna knock it off his shoulder. Keep the traveling with us on The God Journey. You can be part of the conversation by visiting our website, thegodjourney.com.