How Transformation Works (#514) — http://thegodjourney.com/2016/01/08/how-transformation-works-514/

Outside the box of religious obligation lies a road less traveled into the heart of the Father's affection. Slinging freedom all over the place, this is the God, Jesus, the God, Jesus, the God. Well 2016, can you believe it? My goodness, I remember being a kid and people said we wouldn't make it until 1980 before Jesus came again and then it was 88 reasons he was coming in 1988 and 89 reasons he was coming in 1989 and then just on and on up until the last blood moon and here we are at 2016 and the world's maybe getting to be a bit of a darker place than it was 20 years ago but who knows what's ahead for us. Hi, I'm Wayne Jacobson. I want to welcome you to this edition of the God Journey and do I have a special guest for us today? It's been three years since she's last been on the podcast with me and I want to introduce to you for those who haven't met her yet. This is my wife, Sarah. Hi, Sarah. Hi. How are you doing? I'm doing pretty good. You finished up your favorite season of the year other than spring gardening, which is Christmas. Yes. How was it? It was great. You loved it? Mm-hmm. It was all you hoped for? It was a little busier than I had anticipated. What made it so busy? You know, I have pretty much a lot of things done by Thanksgiving but life just kind of happens. Life keeps coming at you and then we had Christmas with our family, which our family's in a great spot these days. It's just fun to hang out with kids, grandkids and significant others and all that's going on in our family these days. Yeah. Yeah? Yes. And then we got to go up to a week with my dad, visit him in the mountains and the family showed up there too. Yes. So we had some... Snow. Snow and some sledding and some snowball fighting. You stayed out of the snowball fighting, didn't you? Yeah, I don't like snowball fighting. But I saw you sledding down there with the little girl jumping over the hump at the end of the trail. And we made our snowman. You made a snowman? It was a fun. Pretty good one. Yeah, good. It was all a good season. Yes, it was. And now we're back to the new year and this is your worst month. Yes, it is. Worst month. Yes, it is. There are more records to be filled out and things to be accomplished and donor records to straighten out and Sarah anchors all that for us at Lifestream. So... The government keeps me busy this month. Actually, yes. She actually works more for the government than she does for us this month. Really? Yes, that's pretty much what I'm doing. She's got lots to do and book orders and this is kind of that month where it's good thing it's not a good gardening month. That way you can really hunker down and get the other stuff. Yeah, that would be extremely frustrating. Yeah, because your little study office thing just kind of looks right out on the garden. Oh, but then if I get really tired, then the paperwork are weary. I can always go out and prune some roses because they need to be done this month. So sometimes you just get enough paperwork and you just got to go out and do something with the plants. Yes. Well, I don't blame you. It's relaxing. Cool. Well, Sarah does not enjoy doing podcasts. I think it's safe to say. Yep. That's good. But I don't make her. I've not tied her to the chair or anything. She's here. Her own free will. But we got an email and a blog comment and a lot of it was kind of directed at Sarah and Sarah's story. And so I thought instead of me just tackling these alone, I asked Sarah if she'd be willing to jump in here with me this morning this afternoon and she said she would. So first podcast of the year, here's Sarah. And we're going to talk through some of this. Now, let me just tell you what the ground rules are for this. Yes, please do. Well, poor Sarah. She lives her life publicly because I do. And mostly she's okay with that. What she's not okay with is doing a lot of counseling by phone or responding to a ton of emails and trying to. And I know when people hear Sarah's story and they think, oh my gosh, I resonate with that. I'm going to write Sarah. And occasionally people do. But for the most part, last time Sarah shared her story here and kind of the transition she was going through. And I'll link that in the podcast notes at the end of the blog post so you can listen to that. And if you haven't heard that yet, you might want to go back and hear that before you continue with this one because Sarah shared, let me get that straight, some stuff that God was doing in your life that kind of took you by surprise. But it's a pretty deep work of transformation in your heart. And it took a couple of months and you've been all better ever since. No? No. Is it still going on? Yes. And where would you say you are in the process? Are you kind of, and I know you don't know how long it's going to take or anything, but do you feel like you're getting through it enough into wider space to enjoy it? Or I know last time we talked to you, you were not enjoying the transformation, really. That's an interesting question. I have a hundred of them. It is, my eyes are being opened and broaden. I have no clue. I thought a year ago that I knew a lot more than what I do now, looking back and seeing I've learned, I keep learning a lot about myself, how to respond. And well, I don't know if I would say that I'm not sure. It's not as painful as it was before, but I have no clue as far as how long, because I have, it's like, I don't know what I don't know. This is crazy, because I've totally enjoyed this process. I have enjoyed what God is doing in you. I've enjoyed the deep places, even where it's been hurtful to you and painful for you. I have enjoyed watching God lead you out of this place that you didn't even know you were stuck in. For those who haven't heard the podcast, haven't gone back to here yet. It's just, Sarah, 50-some-odd years of growing up in a family and growing up with expectations that she could meet and never finding out who she really was, just trying to fit in with what everybody else thought was best for her. Does that sum it up? Maybe. It's just fix it. Fix it. Yeah. I mean, just, what didn't resonate about how I defined it? Well, it probably is. I mean, it's just that I didn't know a lot of issues I was dealing with, and I'm learning to connect with myself in the father's eyes and how he views me and who I am, what I like. I mean, a lot of things aren't different from what I was previously, except I know for myself. Yeah. I don't notice a different Sarah coming through. It's like, Sarah's got all these likes and things that I didn't know she had. Most of them I feel like, yeah, I've known this Sarah all my life, but you haven't known this Sarah. No. And you haven't been relaxed to be her. You've been, first of all, I mean, one of the things we talked about is you just grew up feeling like you were the stupid one. So you kind of hid by doing a lot of stuff for other people and kind of hid from who you really were and what your wants really were. Yeah. And now we're learning that, and I've enjoyed the process because I've gotten to be on the inside of it with you and love you through it, and I've had to change through this too. It's been to make room for what God's doing in you. It had to shift some things in my life, and I've been perfectly comfortable with that. I'm all for this process, and yet I get a lot of email from women who say their husbands aren't. Their husbands want them to be what they've always been and acted how they've always acted, and their freedom is a threat to them. And I find that incredibly sad. So guys, I want to tell you, if your wife's going to a neat place of shifting and changing, go with it. Make room for her. Don't kind of hunger for what you used to have in your comfortable lifestyle because when somebody around you is in bondage, it's usually pretty good for the people around them. I mean, I was getting the fruits of Sarah meeting my expectations, and in a fleshly level, that's pretty good. But in terms of living with a real human being, it's not great at all. So you're hopeful with the new year. Yeah, that's going to keep happening, and we're going to keep learning together. Whenever I travel, and people have heard this past podcast with you, they always say, it is so encouraging to me to know that you guys can still be going through things that broaden your world. And it's given me hope, and partly because we're in our 60s now, when people kind of think, oh gosh, wouldn't you guys be all done by then? I didn't know until I was in my late 50s. But even in your mid 50s, you wouldn't feel like you were done with God's work in you. I certainly never felt that way. I think this is a lifetime journey of being transformed. And actually a lot of the questions that people wanted to ask you have a lot to do with that. I was talking to someone this week who had a milestone birthday, and it was kind of like, boy, I wish I had more done than I am at this age. And it's like, really? You're still pretty young. None of it affect the age she is. Neither one of us were when we started on this love journey. I mean, she's still younger than that. And when I was that age, I had no idea what God still wanted to and I really see it this way. The freedom God wanted to invite me into. We were reading a book last night and one of the coaches in the book was this guy saying that it's like when you come to new levels of freedom, it's like this great weight falls off your shoulders. And you added that you don't even know you're carrying. No. You have a clue until it's gone or going and then it opens up a little better. So anything more you want to say before we hit these email stuff? Nope. Go ahead. OK. This is an email from Australia. I've left the name off. It says, I am new to this journey and I'm really struggling with the process. Feels like I'm so stuck in independence that I'll never be able to break out of it. But deep down, I really want to. I was wondering if you'd like to be able to share a bit about how your transformation took place in this email was to Sarah. So these questions are being asked to her. For example, how did father help you? What did it feel like that you hear anything? How long did the process take? Some of that. And so stuck in the independence at the very beginning. Independence, is she married? Yeah, she is married. We'll find out a little bit in her view is a seems like a wrong concept. You know, I don't know how much to make of that because she says, I'm so stuck in independence, I'll never be able to break out. And that obviously wasn't your deal. No, I was the opposite. So I'm thinking it is not because we each are our own person, even in the midst of a marriage, because God created us each as sons and daughters. And so there isn't anything, I don't think, I mean, it's a good thing to be able to have some sense of independence. So I don't know if that's, that's where I'm wondering if that's in. Well, that may come out in the letter as we go down a little further, because I'm not sure what you mean by stuck in it. It could be what you're saying. It could be God's really freeing her, but it looks like independence because she's not meeting everybody's else's expectations around her. And that may be a good thing. But see, I was stuck. Well, I was co-dependence. What'd you say? I don't know. I everybody else was important and I wasn't at important at all. So for me to focus on myself for a long time felt selfish, but yet it wasn't selfish because I was caring and taking care of myself. You have to love yourself before you can be able to love and be happy and content with yourself in order to be able to love others. That's part of the problem here, especially with women, when the religious context, especially where women are just to be, you know, quietly subservient, go along and serve and be good. And it kind of then feel when God begins to poke at that and set you free. I don't know if that's her confusion or not about this independence, but it maybe we'll see as we go further on. So let's not talk about her transformation so much as yours. How do you think God helped you through this time? Did he did he speak to you? Did he I'll yes, he did. It wasn't necessarily in Bible readings. It was a large part of it. I love music and a large part of and I still will listen to them probably daily are being songs that he brought to mind. I mean, it's odd. One of them is, you know, I'm watching. I'm exercising and watching an afternoon talk show and this one person in the head sang a song and or somebody gives me a CD or the kids give me some music and something just touches my heart. And there was kind of like a conversation. Some of them were where I was being. My heart and my thoughts to God and some of them were his heart and thoughts about me to me. And I love that you're recognizing the conversation. It's going on at a heart level. God speaking to you and you're crying out to him. But you're hearing it in lyrics to songs and it's giving definition because of the resonance of your heart. I love that. And and it continues. And then now I listen to them. I will know exactly and I will I can relive and think and feel what I was feeling at the depths of some of those things. And I would listen to them over and over and over and over again. And I do. And I typed up the songs, the words to the lyrics to those. I have them and I'll read them. And then there'll be a few scriptures here and there. Or they'll I mean, people have said things. Just something in it. Just something just catches your heart. Yeah. How long the process take still going on. Sixty two years and counting. It's probably been about three, four years when I got my first song. Now I'm up to probably I have eight, nine songs. Yeah, it's probably been four years since you became aware there was a problem, even they didn't know what the problem was. And then it took six months, eight months to discover what the problem was. And then it's been three and a half years since then where you're still you're still learning to be you, learning to be true to you, which is which is not independence. It's just so cool to know that you're a beloved daughter of God. And that that has not made you a less caring person or a less serving person. You still over serve this family in a million ways. Just watching you at Christmas and then the whole family's up visiting us while we're in the mountains and all the stuff you do for this family. It hasn't changed any of that surprisingly, except that you're freer in it. And I think others are more aware that they need to help out, not just let mom do it all. So I think that's pretty cool. You had have you had setbacks? Absolutely. And how do you deal with setbacks? A lot of self talk, telling myself it's OK. Remembering and thinking, you know, as you farther, you go along. You can see why I was where I was. And you think back and you know what your feelings were and how you were feeling. And you think, oh, well, it doesn't bother me as much as long or you notice and see things sooner and quicker. But absolutely. Sometimes there's more setbacks than others. Being kinder and more patient to myself. Yeah, that's good. And I think most transformation is that way. People want to see this steady incline of just everything gets better day by day. And I think it's not measured that way. I think it's measured more in months because there's days when you just feel like that freedom is really getting in your soul, at least in my transformation. And then there are days when you feel like, gosh, I just feel like I'm stuck in all this stuff again and you can get discouraged. He's like, I like the self talk that kind of self talking. And like, again, I say I I instantly when I go back and I listen to certain songs, they'll they'll refresh. And I mean, I've listened to them for probably four years. Yeah, you've had some good friends around you to encouraging you in the process. Yes. Yeah, that helps helps not to go it alone. But you said they said, I remember hearing Wayne say on a podcast that you told him it was something you needed to work out yourself. If you don't mind me asking, what was going on inside you at the time? I asked because I think that's the point I'm at right now. I'm 33 years old have only just realized in the last 12 months that I grew up in a dysfunctional family. It's as if I've been woken from a trance and the work I am doing is incredibly painful. But I thought I was making progress and beginning to wonder if transformation is even possible. It is possible, but it's extremely slow. And God is not concerned about the timetable. And it's it's really got to look at it is a journey because you're going to have set bets you're going to have going forward. I mean, at the beginning and for me, now it's not. So painful, but it is extremely painful to when you grew up in a dysfunctional home always like what my home was to face the fears. It's very scary. And your fears and now realize I wouldn't have said back then. I don't remember that one statement where I was saying or how I feeling, but it takes a lot of courage. There is a lot of lot of courage to people. It's easier to go the status quo. What you've done then to face head on. The challenges, but you're not facing them alone. But there is a lot of a lone lonely feeling, but you're not alone. And that's where a lot of the songs, there's different ones where I'm not alone and that you got to rely on that. I don't know if that answers what she's trying to. Yeah, I don't know either. I think that takes a lot of cheerleading to people around you who are encouraging you in the right way. That's helpful. But her when I read this, I'm 33 years old and I've only known for the last 12 months I grew up in a dysfunctional family. Then this is not the time to be discouraged. Yeah, I didn't know that until I was in my fifties. Yeah, as painful as that is and realizing your family's dysfunctional and all of that is great by 33. But these things take time, not because God's slow, but because something's changing internally, the internal scripts, the way you think. And that stuff doesn't move easily. It takes time for that to change. You actually in your brain, your brain actually is rewiring how you think. Yeah. I mean, it's not just like you're going to switch it. I mean, it's through conversations. It's through prayer. It's through maybe journaling, listening. You are in your brain that it's actually literally rewiring everything. And then to the depth of what, you know, what kind of dysfunction is. And then in a lot of it, you grieve what you didn't have, a childhood that you didn't have. I mean, we're talking on the way up differences in your childhood and my childhood. Um, so, and wherever anybody's at, it's going to, you know, you know, depend on what your childhood was like. Um, this functional one's bad versus another bad. I mean, pain is pain and, you know, a bad childhood, but you're half, you, you're rewiring and it's a wee thinking. And that doesn't, I mean, that's, that comes over and over again, again, again, talking to yourself over and over and over again. That's important, not just for you. I think particularly when you're young and you've got children in the home still and some of that, not only are you fighting out of this dysfunctionality for yourself, but as you find freedom from that, then you can pass on a different heritage to your kids. Some of this dysfunctionality lives in families for a long time. Yeah. And it takes someone to be the brave, the courageous person that's going to, I'm not going to let this live in, I'm not going to use the excuse that that's how my family works. I'm going to step out of it. But one of the things that threatens, and you haven't had this issue so much because your family is not around. But once someone begins to change the family, the parents, they lose their way to manipulate you. And that's threatening to them. So you've had not only your own fears and doubts, but now you've got people around you saying, this isn't good for you. This is not a helpful process. We want you the way you were because they enjoyed the bondage you were in. It served them. Yeah, and sometimes those relationships can be challenged and tried to work through things. And sometimes I would say they probably aren't something to be able to work through, maybe down the road. But that takes a lot of courage to be able to stand up for yourself and your rights and having boundaries with people because I didn't have boundaries with them myself. And I think that's what she was referring to when she said, you know, you need to work this out on your own. I think that was way back to 94 when you were dealing with boundaries and you were dealing with things. And I wanted to help you with something because I wanted to try and fix you. And you were just kind of backing me off saying, I need I need Jesus to sort this out in my life. It wasn't this whole transformation you've pushed me away because you've very much invited me into be part of this part of it with you. But there were times and I think there's times in our own line, we just say, you know, stop trying to fix me. Just let me and Jesus sort this out before you try to shape it in a way that serves you. And I think in 94, I was much more trying to shape it in a way that would. And I don't think people, it's between you and God. It's your life. It's you that you're dealing. Other people can't fix you. Other people can't change that. You you're walking through this. You're you have those who come alongside to help you encourage you, but it is your journey. It is your life. There's a difference between people who are just encouraging you to keep exploring and have courage and God's going to be there and those who come along trying to fix it the way they want it fixed. Yeah, that doesn't work because they have no idea. Somebody says, well, I know what you're like and what you're dealing with inside. No, you don't. Everybody's saying, I mean, it's all relative, this that one to each of us. She uses some speaker that I'm not sure where this comes from this terminology from something. She said, apparently I use protectors when I'm speaking to my partner. He has the uncanny ability to see deep within the core of a person. He's a therapist, after all, and I get frustrated because I don't realize that I'm doing this. Of course, I don't believe I'm doing it on purpose, but I am doing it nonetheless. I want to change when I read that sentence. And we talked about this a little last night. I kind of first of all, I don't think anybody has the uncanny ability to see deep within the core of a person, even a counselor. No. Only we're going to see that. And if somebody's trying to tell you what your conclusions ought to be, yeah, you ought to be careful about that. So I'm not sure exactly what she means by that, but if you're listening to this and I hope you are, don't put more on your husband than is really there. He's not seeing as much as I think you think he sees. If I'm understanding what you're saying right. But she said, I'd like to ask you if you think it's possible to be able to speak your mind, exert authority, share opinions clearly, discuss topics in an adult way without changing who you are as a person. And she said, I feel like I'm being asked to change the core of who I am. Please, will you tell me how to balance this? I need hope. Yeah. I mean, you think, well, some if I look back four years ago, I thought I who I was, I don't say I'm not changing who I am. I, that's not the way to say it. No, I think it was fine. I'm, You're discovering who you are. I guess that's a better word because I mean, we all, life changes us every day. Experiences come in life and we change things. Life throws walls at us at different times. Some of them good, some of them bad. And we change and with God, we're flexible. We're all growing, always growing. So I don't think, you know, I would say I am changing, but I'd be changing to become who I am. Rather than changing the core of who you are. Yeah, your core is not changing. I think what's happening is she's finding what her core is. It's like you got an onion and layers just keep going off and off or else, you know, someone told me it's like a, you know, a snake skin. You, you, you a snake skin. They, they peel off their snake skin. There's no way going back. You can't stick, you know, that, that stuff, a snake back into its old snake skin. You can't go back in and it, you know, I'm finding the deeper those layers, more layers go off. The more you're finding who your true self really is. And, you know, you thought what you are. So, you know, you are changing. I don't think that's... What you got to discover here is who are you really inside as a beloved daughter of a gracious God? Who are you really? And if someone's asking you to be different than that, that's not healthy. If you're being pressured to lay down who you really are to get along, something's wrong. But if, and this is what this letter could be saying too, the core of what I thought I was, isn't who I really am. And to find my way to be able to, as she says here, to speak my mind, to share opinions clearly, do I need to change the core of who I am? And I think what we're saying is, no, not the core of who you are, that, that just gets redeemed by God. The core of who she is is becoming, it's starting to come and evolve and flourish. Yeah, inside, yeah. We talked about this with a group of guys this morning. As love grows in our hearts, as you grow increasingly confident in how loved you are, you will discover who you really are. Yes. Because the false self of the things we put on to appease others, to make our husband happy, to make our boss happy, to fit into religion. As we read about our false self that Leah talked about in the last podcast, I think the core of who we really are, which isn't the selfish, independent, I'll do things my way. That's not the core of who we really are. The core of who we really are is what makes Sarah Sarah, what makes Wayne Wayne, that God made before sin twisted it and made it something weird. And it's coming back to that freedom, but I wouldn't answer a question this way. I think the more freedom you find to be who you really are, the freer you are in conversations to have an opinion, to speak clearly and to not be pushed around and manipulated by other people, even your spouse. Yep. And I think that's helpful. And then I wrote a blog when I got back from Ohio about women in captivity, race in captivity. It's really directed at that ultra conservative, women who have to dress in baggy, shabby clothes so they're not a temptation to men. Judy posted on that blog, and I wanna get Sarah's feedback on some of this too. She writes that, this is also my story, the long baggy dresses and head coverings. I started out from the beginning to hide myself under this clothing for years to protect the men from our evil hearts as women. Look how that got twisted. Because men lost, it's because women have evil hearts. And that's, oh boy, that's sick. Yeah, that's what we tried to write that article about. And women who would say, obviously there's something ugly about me that I have to hide under clothes because it will provoke the wrong thing in men instead of know the problems in the men whose lusting hearts need to be shaped and it's not by addressing women the way they want to to keep their temptations at bay. But she said, this was just a part of the bondage, the limitations, the stifling I embraced it because I believed it was God's way. Now I'm free of that congregation after 50 years, largely because of your writings that have been freeing to me. And I thank God for them. I also, I have also loved that your wife is often brought in and her sublimation of herself is what I've done also. Would you use that word sublimation? To define it. Just submitting yourself under other people's expectations? That's all I did. So you lost your personhood by first your parents and that family. And then even as a Christian in the religious world and then as my wife and as a pastor's wife, you kept sublimating things that were really going on in your heart because you didn't have any confidence they had worth or value. Yeah, but I didn't even know I had any confidence. And that was going on, yeah, largely unknown, except you were just- No, I didn't know. You were just fitting in to everything else in fear that if people really found out who you were, they wouldn't respect you. Wasn't that part of it? No, I wasn't being fair. You wouldn't what? I don't think I would be unfair either because I didn't know. You didn't know at all, wow. No, it was, there was no fear in that. There was pain at times in that feeling like a bad person. Yeah, so Judy writes on, I now realize that I haven't really known who I am or what I want because I'm always trying to be all things to all others. Oh yeah. And we can quote scriptures to that. Paul talks about that, being all things to all men. But that comes from a place of freedom. And I think that's what has to be so clear. It's not somebody has no confidence at all so they're just going along with everybody else's demands. You can lay down your life, you can be all things to all people when you know who you are and you're willing to lay something down for a higher good. But if you don't know who you are. Things to all people, you're saying that in a good sense. That's how Paul uses it in Corinthians. But only if you're, like Jesus when he washes the disciples feet, it's not, I'm the worst person here, I should wash everybody's feet. It says Jesus knowing who he was and where he'd come from. And so his washing the disciples feet was not an act of I have to do it because no one else will, but I'm choosing to lay down my life, choosing to do this for a higher good and a greater blessing to other people. You still do that well. You still serve this family well. Yeah. But it comes from a different place, right? Mostly, yes. Yeah, mostly. Still working on it. But I think I think in the religious culture, women carry this a lot more where that it's not all people to all because even still seeing, I see that, but yeah, I'm thinking that feels like there's bondage there. And where you come from, I absolutely get it. I don't think Paul's talking about that bondage thing though, when he says, I can be all things to all men. To the Jew, I become like a Jew. To the Gentile, I become like a Gentile. He's willing to fit in to share the gospel. I think if a woman is not extremely confident in who she is in Christ, which I have no clue how many percentage of women are like that, I think if they aren't, it's very easy for, it is, if they are competent, it's easier to be able to be all people for all things in freedom. Otherwise, I think women carry it in a very submissive sublimation way. Yes. Yeah, I think that's the point. She's saying, I've had this teaching all my life to just be all things to all people and your desires don't count, your gifts don't count. You just do what all the men around you expect you to do and shut up. And that's not what Paul's talking about. I agree, only from a place of health can that happen. She says, now you realize that I haven't really known who I am or what I want because I'm always trying to be all things that I've heard that. It may be too late to ever know the whole truth, but I'm seeking it now. And it can be a little scary at times, which we've already talked about. The beauty of it all is that I am walking with God and Jesus is always with me. And I know he's sharing this development and is patient with the slowness of my heart and mind to comprehend what he is teaching me through the amazing developments that he appears to have brought into my life. Freedom to a woman fresh out of bondage is exhilarating and shocking at the same time. One thing is for sure, I'm never going back. Yep. And I think it's never too late. I think some women, as they get older, they think, well, it's too late to change. But I don't think it's ever too late. I've heard people say that. And it's just so sad that somewhere by 55 you're just locked into whatever you're gonna be the rest of your life. And I know women die that way, who've never challenged their fears, never let God crawl in there, because the process is scary. Now, you've said that. Oh, it's scary. It's painful. It's a lot of work. And all the worse, if your husband's not supporting it, all the more difficult. Yes. That's what I wanna say in this podcast to the men. I mean, Sarah's a lot of the voice for the women in this thing, obviously. I wanna say to the men, if let your wife grow through this. Yeah, risk your marriage. Risk everything to set her free, which I think is really, when Jesus talked about the husbands laying down their lives as Christ laid down his life for the church, I think that's what it really means. Jesus died so that we could be all that God made us to be. He risked everything. And it was for our good and for our benefit. And husbands, if we don't do that with our wives, if we're not laying down our lives so that they can be all that God's called on me, one of my prayers every morning, now I wake up and one of my early prayers during the day is, Father, help me love Sarah today the way you want her loved. And am I doing that perfectly well every day? No, I'm not. That's such a growing edge for me. Loving someone like Father wants them loved is a deal. And I've got enough of impatience and other things still in my life that don't always make that easy. But we're learning. She said, I am surrounded by female friends who are at various stages of bondage as well. And it breaks my heart to see their suffering still. Even after divorces or worse, she says, remaining in marriages where they continue to sublimate all their own desires to another who delights in their oppression. Man, that is one sad statement. Yeah. But I know people like that. I know some people like that who are in that kind of thing who are not sublimating in the sense that I have to just shut up and go along. But they love their husband enough to realize they're transforming further than he is. And they're willing to give him space and time to maybe come along as well. And I think that's gracious. But if someone actually delights in the oppression because honestly, men have benefited a lot from women's oppression in religious groups and marriages and all that kind of thing. So it's no wonder why they enjoy it. But I think this has to become the larger passion of our hearts. I want to see you free. And I'm not gonna delight in the sublimation of the women in my life for my own gain. I'm gonna delight in their freedom and their free expression. And their growing understanding of who they are and who God made them to be. I hope Christians will pray for women like this, Judy continues, who have given their offer to a man for decades only to realize that the prison they endured was just to feed the sin of a selfish Christian man. God, this hurts. But I think it needs to be said. She said, I have a question for you. Is all this just a selfish woman who died to self and now wants the resurrection of that self? Am I sinning wanting all of this for myself? Is sin at the door? And if women give men power over themselves, have they not given them a license to sin? I'd really appreciate your take on all this, thanks. Okay, read that last part again. Well, I think what she's saying is, as I'm learning to discover who I am and not just sublimate and go along with everybody, is that just selfishness growing in me that I'm calling transformation? No, that selfishness, that thinking is a result of the sublimation, thinking that that's because when I started it, I remember I felt selfish because I was focusing on myself. It feels that way, but that is where you have to be in taking care of yourself. Women take care of families and they're not saying that they're gonna just, stop doing everything and caring for their families, but you care for families at a cost to your own life and you're internally dying internally, a lot of women are dying. I was dying. I didn't know I needed to be rescued, but God was the one that rescued me. I had no idea. And so, we're dying if you don't take care of yourself. It's not a selfish, it's not sinning. It's taking care of who you are and who God created you to be. Yeah, one of the things that maybe would help people, I don't know, this sounds good, but I don't come from the same place you come from here, but to realize that you becoming you is not selfish because it's Jesus' greatest passion. I think it's helpful to kind of not just, well, I've never had my way for 20 years. I'm just gonna take my way all the time. That's not gonna lead down a healthy road, but if Jesus is saying to you, Sarah, you're not free to be who I made you to be and I want you to be, then there's no selfishness in it at all because he's doing this work in you, not, because you've never, I've even, we had this joke with time, but I'm gonna give you six months to try and do one selfish thing, and that was two and a half years ago and I don't think you've done it yet. It's just not in you to be selfish in a way that I'm just gonna take my will and the rest of you go fly off a roof somewhere. But I agree with what she said. I think the way religion has couched it, any woman beginning to have an appreciation for who she is, her ideas and her values is gonna, can be accused of, well, you're just being selfish out to get your own way. No, that's because you're going back to when you were born, you were born as a daughter to Heavenly Father. That's first and foremost who you are. You, I'm, you know, other women, they may take on roles as wife, you know, mother, grandmother, but that is not, you go back to, you were created as a daughter and that's where the selfishness, that's where you are going back and you are now nurturing that and finding who you are. And that's when then you can be able, once you find that and love yourself, might as you are, then you can be able then to love others more effectively, honestly. And the other people who are calling you selfish for doing that are usually people who've benefited from you for their selfishness. They're not happy. Yeah, they're not happy you're moving. They're grumbling. And it's very easy to use that accusation. I think that she points out, particularly in a religious context, it's really, say, well, what do you mean? Who you are and loving yourself and God's calls to die to ourselves and lay down our lives and you can use the language of religion to really press women back into that sublimation. Totally. Instead of like Jesus did, invite them out. Being true to who you are is just a bedrock reality of humanity. Now, wherever selflessness comes in, it's when you, knowing who you are, are willing to lay that down for someone else's good. That's different than being forced to do it by some man in your life who then benefits from the fact that you're doing it for him. Anything else you wanna say? Nope. I know you hate this. I love the stuff you shared today. I think we'll get some great responses. Just don't let those responses be emails to Sarah. Cause that's- They can email you. Can email me. And maybe I'll write it by her now and then, but really this is not her deal. She lives her life in public cause I do and I appreciate the fact that we do this together. But I'm much more the one that's in these conversations with people than Sarah is and I don't need Sarah to be. I like Sarah right where she is, the way she loves this family and loves life and embraces the joy of her garden and people ask me, why doesn't Sarah travel all the time with you? Cause I tell you what, it would bore most people to death to travel with me and sit through the conversations. I sit through a hundred times every day and I appreciate that you've found your freedom to do what God's called you to do than not do what God's not called you to do. Thanks for doing this, babe. You're welcome. I think you shared some great stuff. Hope it's helpful to folks. Thanks, we'll be back next week with the God Journey. Hope your new year is just filled with lots of joy and transformation and the patience to get through it. Thank you for traveling with us today on the God Journey. You can join this conversation by visiting thegodjourney.com or add your voice by calling our comment line at 805-539-6980.