Civil Dialog Begins at Home (#542) — http://thegodjourney.com/2016/07/22/civil-dialog-begins-at-home-542/

Outside the box of religious obligation lies a road less traveled into the heart of the father's affection. Slinging freedom all over the place, this is the God Jam, the God Jam, the God Jam. Hi I'm Wayne Jacobson and he's Brad Cummings and no he's not here yet but he will be shortly. Last week's podcast went way over time as we're talking about the ranker of our political discourse and how broken it is and how much that impacts our own conversations with people we know and love. It's been said that religion makes you relationally challenged and we find that true in a lot of forums where Christians are more interested in trying to convince each other they're right than we are learning to love each other. Well Brad and I get into all that in just a minute and you're invited to join us and if you want to go back to last weeks and hear it if you hadn't you might want to do that to set the context for this one. I also want to remind you before we start out of our trip to Israel coming up next January, August 1 is the cut off date for registrations. So those of you that have been thinking about it and haven't pulled the trigger yet you might want to in any case here's the podcast we began last week. We had a little bit of this yuck meter conversation on the blog because there's people that you know felt like when you and I say our yuck meter goes off that we're being demeaning and demoralizing to people who feel like their yuck meter goes off and we say something and I'm kind of like everybody gets their yuck meter. Yeah. Yeah. I mean. Please exercise it it will and towards what anything we say but. And my usually when we use it it's not aimed at anything specific but one of the things that we were talking about the yuck meter was up such a contest is how much the gospel gets distorted when it's monetized. And the focus is not on the monetizing. It's the distorting. I sell books. I don't think there's anything wrong with monetizing. It's when we try to monetize maximally or we try to get a maximum amount of hits and so we're using things on our website that really isn't honest and true. That's the stuff that makes my yuck meter go off. But I mean I it's not as challenging it is it takes a whole lot of courage to step back from this thing. But it's not that challenging to recognize what is my highest priority making a sale or making the truth known. Okay. That's not a difficult decision. Oh yes it is. Oh yes. To see clearly. Yeah. To see clearly. That's not it. How fun have we talked about cognitive dissonance. And once my economic self-interest is in play it's not easy to see. I remember having. That I will completely agree if you have an economic interest you can't see it. I remember having a conversation with an editor who wasn't going to run an article I'd written for their magazine. Even though he said to me I love this article this is exactly what needs to be said. But Wayne if we say it listen and this I think pastors in pulpits deal with this every day if we say this you're going to offend at least 10% of our readership maybe 20. If we lose 5% of our readership we don't have the platform to say what we need to say in other areas. So as important as this might be we're not going to say it here because we're going to say other truths that we think are important and we're not going to risk the platform for it. Now that's where I think even he he's saying very clearly this is something the church ought to wrestle with. But we're not the ones going to do it because the risk to our ability to publish the next magazine is definitely going to be at stake because that's how Christian they read something in a magazine they don't like that's I'm canceling my subscription blah blah blah. This is just the the ranker that we do these things. So I think it's one often it's not easy to see the cognitive dissonance what we justify in the name of I'm trying to keep my family fed. And the other side of then when we actually see it but the cost of making that decision is more than willing to bear. I guess having been pushed off that cliff several times I granted I was helped by my circumstance the decision to willingly OK I'm I'm I'm going to do this to my harm. That takes incredible courage. But I think once this whole dynamic starts to become clear it really is a survival motif of your conscience. Are you going to see it or are you going to free it? Because if you can start to see this dynamic and you choose the economics well God bless you truly because I don't think that's going to turn out well that will lead to a complete compromise of your soul. And we have supernatural powers of rationalization so you can have a ton of issues about it. But I would still like to have a sharper sword that says you know what this really is the dividing line for a lot of things that whether it will or won't make a true difference. I agree and I think the people I love meeting in the world the most and I love everybody because I'm a Jesus guy. You know that's not get saying I'm especially fond of all of them. But the people I love to meet and spend time a few men Nashville people who have made horrible decisions against their own self interest because something in their conscience wouldn't let them do otherwise. I love those people. I enjoy being with them to me they're the most engaging people on the planet to be with people who said okay I could fight for my way here and could probably win but my conscience is not going to let me do to someone else what they're doing to me. So I'm going to take it on the chin and I'm going to let God provide for me another way and for the first few years of that it doesn't usually look really good. You look at the outside going well that person wasn't an idiot they should have but three four years down the road as God surrounds them with other ways to live and provision and whatever and their conscience now as a gentler thing in the world less seduced by cognitive dissonance and not that we all can't be we all can be but I love meeting people when they tell me a story of man I wanted to do this everything in me but God just kept leading me another way I am drawn into those stories and I love those people I love what they've risked. See that is that is I think where we're going to find a fruitful way forward for our country for parties that disagree is when we can truly get to that place where it's like can you be honest about your vested interests can't can't can you be honest about them. I think that's a that's a challenging question because I do believe we are so unable to see we are when our bias especially an economic one is that is at the core. Yeah, I like somebody's idea. They said the ought to make Congress people wear jumpsuits like race car drivers with all their the all their where their mother all the patches all the logos from all the people who have taken money from that be hilarious. They wouldn't do it. They never do it. But because in an advertising NASCAR you want people to know right. In politics because you're running from it yourself. You don't want people to know for the most part. I mean the NRA people they want I'm an NRA supporter and they give them things. Some groups do that for the most part when they're taking money out of your pocket and giving special benefits to special interests in Wall Street and whatever they don't want you to know who's been given the money and who's going how when that is any part of the equation how do you actually come out with a policy that is going to be beneficial to all because I just don't think it's possible to have a country that is totally given to self interest and somehow think this is going to end well. It's not and I honestly think that drives some of the Trump campaign right now people don't think he's well hinged but he's the middle finger at Washington. It's just saying we are so sick and tired of the establishment that keeps telling us trust us this time we're going to get it right and since Reagan maybe or Bush won every president we've had and every party that's been in power has taken us more and more down the road of the privileged establishment versus the people. I wrote a blog a while back saying I don't think the political battle right now is between R&D it's between the government class and the people. And whether we're really going to take a government back from all the lobbyists, media people and politicians that make Washington DC and its surrounding counties the most expensive counties in the world and they produce nothing but law and we can even say bad law and bad reggae but I don't really but I want to take this back I know we're into a second one now I want to take this back to what you were talking about about moving this because the national anytime I talk about the national conversation I don't see any hope on the horizon. It's too unwieldy and nobody that I know actually has enough real influence that the trickle down of the theory at that level ever works. And there seems to be no statesmen or women in the wings are going to write. So that's not encouraging but to get back to what you said about getting this back to a local level and even passed a local game back to you and me. Am I having the conversations in the culture that would lean more toward what my heart really hungers for and inviting people in and learning to experience what someone else has experienced and I've told this story before we've got good friends that when we first met them we didn't know they were illegal immigrants in fact they didn't know they thought they had a green card even though they'd paid an attorney for it and attorney ended up being arrested for selling fraudulent documents. But by then these were already our friends and people who knew Jesus. Now I have I live through their eyes the life of an illegal immigrant in California and I grew up a law and order Republican and I want them all shipped back and I want you know and now my whole heart has changed because I see it from their side I see why they left their country why they're here how much they've contributed how little they get back and my heart has completely changed for what illegal immigration is and what our country needs to do about it and I don't say it just needs to open the gates and everybody gets to come here I do think we have to secure the border but I do think we've been exploiting a labor force in our country for 30 40 years that we need to be responsible about and not just ship them all back. I think we've got to find a way to address the need. But even that to I mean to talk about the whole subject of illegal immigration you have so many other issues that are that are filtering into that we're not just talking about a labor force when you have that I mean there's a whole drug cartel behind that they're just like how do you siphon that issue off because it that's a different policy it's a different set of issues but it's coming through the same lack of a gate. No I was going to say you got to secure the border and you've got to take out people and send back who are criminals who are here for criminal intent superb you do but there's a whole lot of people who aren't who escaped there my my friend came here because at 15 he had to join the cartel or be killed yes so he came here and now he's had a family he's got kids growing up here they're citizens he's not is he risking deportation because yes in the whole Trump parlance yes he is now I'm all for let's identify him pay a fine and I'll pay as far I'll pay as freaking fine I will I would like to see these people made legal and stay here because the Republicans that are against doing that also exploit their labor also know they can hire him cheaper and treat him rotten because there's no place to appeal the problem I think you can get the criminals out realize those that are contributing to our culture and find a way of peace but I'm really sharing that not so much to get in the whole debate I'm just saying this all comes down to the way you live with the people you know and if you don't have an experience with a legal immigration family don't talk like you do exactly and if you don't have an experience with a back family if you don't know the pain of a mother who sends her child who's a great student working hard at school trying to do well but she when he goes out the door she fears any altercation she might have with a policeman that could escalate into the unsafety of her child if you don't understand that then get out of the debate because that's as real as it my children did not grow up in the same America that south central Los Angeles is that they just didn't my kids were born on second base other kids were born in the dugout don't even know how to swing a bat or get to the on-deck circle don't have the family support to get there and we've got to care enough to go into every kid every life matters and in our society I think the whole black lives matter to get gotten to be ridiculous because it really is the statement that there are lives that matter less and that would be true in many black communities I get the comment but at the same time I also get the idea that you know what we all matter we all do but some matter less than others and we need to change that in our culture and I think it's having those kinds of conversations and understandings and yeah I think that the the difficulty is when you drive up the rhetoric past the actual people or the actual thing that I've got to do and you start in that realm of theory in that either nothing good transpires and fear you ramp up fear yeah yeah and it's sort of like if we stayed with the main and plain and the practical in the sphere in which we live then produce fruit there then on the basis of real produced fruit your argument will be far stronger for the implementation and the adoption in a similar situation but don't assume that the next situation is the same thing as yours exactly and if you can find a way in your world to treat people with more respect and more civility and have better conversations I think the whole please do please do I haven't seen that honestly in conversations I'm in sometimes with people who really don't even know what a conversation is I sat with a man in his home and he said wait I want to ask you what you think of uh we think of hell in heaven and I'm okay and then he gives me 35 minutes on what he thinks I didn't even breathe I don't think he breathed once and I there was a while while he going through this litany of scriptures and conclusions and angst against people who don't know and I didn't agree with his position but we never had a conversation about it because he wouldn't say well I'm thinking of this you know and I was thinking as we went through this there's something I'd say right there there's something I'd say right there there's something but I have no no in no in without being rude and just shut up a minute so I didn't he talked for 45 minutes and this started with a question of I want to know what you think about this and it ended with a 45 minute sermon he didn't but he did want to talk and then he was done and it was and I would still be helpful awkward moment in the conversation I said so did you really care what I thought about this thing he said what do you mean I said well the story with Wayne what do you think about now you told me 45 minutes what you think about which I disagree with some of it I agree with some of it but we never got a conversation about that he goes oh my gosh we didn't and I know we didn't and I think it's insecurity I think insecurity sucks up bandwidth I do I think it's just yeah if I breathe and they start talking that I really I was just Wayne you might have we sat down for 45 minutes I explained to you why you're wrong about heaven and hell then okay I can decide whether I want to do that or not yeah at least truth and packaging laws up front it starts with what do you think and then the conversation I just even something as simple as bandwidth and I look at it even on our blogs and things when someone or some ones take up all the bandwidth yeah yeah every every podcast they've got to make a comment and I know people this is always talking about me you know if I'm talking about you or not but what what happens is and here's my only concern I don't mind people that are passionate about something and try and talk about it but in a conversation when anybody sucks up all the bandwidth people go away yeah people I want on the blog who are want to read it but now it's like okay it's become the pulpit it's the same reason a lot of us got out of Sunday morning only one mind is functioning here we're of one mind because only one mind gets to work and we're not in a conversation about the journey we're in a lecture about the journey yeah and I don't even agree with everything coming at me from the lecture I would love as reasoned adults to sit and talk through our differences that'd be great but we're losing our capacity for that well again I sort of feel like until you can peel away the economic interest and it's like how do you not have one that's not as difficult as you think right we don't have one you and I we do in other parts of our lives yes but in in in the sphere of the friendship between us oh right we have worked so as to not have one we did have that we got rid of that we did because that wasn't helpful it was not helpful yeah but we did and but but that's not what brought us together it wasn't true enough and so when I look at you know why am I still here and enjoying the friendship because there's nothing to wield upon each other I think that's why it works I get to enjoy you I don't agree with everything you think right right no reason the man would but I enjoy the I get stimulated to think spiritually uh civically emotionally just all that stuff because you have a different opinion that allows me to see what I can't see right but I think what also makes that work is not just economic self-interest that's huge that's a big chunk the other part of it is my need to fix you yes if yes if I had a need to fix you not even for money just for my personal well-being I need you to see the world exactly the way I do we wouldn't have this friendship either no because that's I see that all the time I see it in groups that people come to that kills most everything it kills the conversation people ask me a question Wayne what do you think about this and someone's already going to fix what they're afraid that person might believe and I just I have to break in and go whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa first of all you weren't asked a question I was have a little respect for the moment I've never said that I've said in my head a number of times I just go wow wow that's oh it's been said in the ether world but it's going to kill a room because it's going to make it feel unsafe for other people so I try and negotiate around it but this need to fix people you've got to see it the way I do and it that kills every blog I'm every forum I know it it kills every conversation what's the root behind that because it it's there and so many different situations but how do you how do you shift that because when it's there it kills it it does so what's behind it is it that insecurity is it that I don't have the ability to be safe if you think differently yeah that might be it it might I think in our Christian dialogue it is my god given right to make you see the truth as I see it we we never consider that the way I see truth might not be truth yeah but it's my god given it's conversion it's evangelism it's what I get to make you see what I see because if you're wrong I've got to fix you it's it's been but it's so damaging I just can you take a breath the holy spirit was given the role of convicting the world of sin right yeah he's pretty good at it it's not my job to fix people it's my job to love people it's my job to be honest with people we may see things differently by being honest in an environment that's not trying to fix people will listen to you and they'll give weight to what you say they'll get to go home and consider it and then I think it's what Paul's saying chrysanthemum is for by by speaking the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God right so now you and God get to deal with this and at the end of the day you disagree with me I'm not diminished by your disagreement in fact I may be in light your disagreement may lead me to consider things I haven't considered recently and open me to something that's true exactly the honesty of dialogue offers that the need to fix people doesn't did you ever have the need to fix I was employed to fix I was paid to fix I was a people fixer did it right poorly too yeah but okay so how did you get free from that it's it's I know that's a big question but self-interest went away that helped without my choosing but it did go away but isn't that a huge one but the second thing that I would say is huge is this and you've said on the podcast number of times anyone convinced against their will is unconvinced still yeah I used to know my attempts to fix people didn't lead people to wholeness it led them to if I was the better mouth in the room and I often can be I've got quite a mouth no they could they could pretend I it's it's a gift it bears no comparison to yours I'll say that but when I could see that what I was doing to push people to a conclusion they weren't ready to see in their heart I wasn't serving them I was abusing them yes yes and I came to see that and it hurts to be in a room of people where others don't see that yeah and your need to fix with your theological point of view with your view of hell or heaven or your view of god and truth or your view of the church and religion when you're in a conversation to prove yourself right which I think is a lot having to do with personal validation I think that's where the insecurity comes in yeah that's huge I'll be validated when I show you how wrong you all are that's got to die somewhere inside Jesus in you that's that's a cup you've got to drink right where it doesn't become that important but that's it that's a big part of it and the fixing is the worst fixer is that altruistic part I'm trying to fix you for your own good I don't I don't need I'm gonna fix you because you just need to be fixed was it CS Lewis I think that's the double team demonic and and that's what CS Lewis said it's the man that tyrannizes you for your own good who will the robber Baron he will steal from you and go away but the man who tyrannizes for your own good will tyrannize you forever because he does it with the pleasure of God in his own mind it's so wrong oh it's Lewis writes it it's a powerful quote and I think I butchered it tremendously but I may I may get it and put it in the podcast note so if you want to read the real quote it's it's a great quote yeah I think if you can peel back the economic interest you have the hope of maybe seeing some of this yeah and I only am able to say that through experience of going I've had the no choice anointing several times of the economic interest being ripped away from things yes that I'm going like they were lovely and and I thought it was a loss I did and you could have fought for them I could have justifiably won yeah yeah but but but in in all of this what I've recognized is you know what that actually was a grace filled deliverance that allowed me to finally see something that I couldn't see prior to this and when all of a sudden I see that now now I actually could be a value for the better outworking of that because I'm not as vested in it and I think because there's been added a little maturity between then and now there's also a sense of going it's only going to be helpful where I'm invited exactly I mean that's that that that's the biggest deal it's like you know what I could be a bull like I have a personality that can get in the room you know what I promise you he does I promise you he's not lying here he's not exaggerating I can I can I can bust down that door but I realize every time you do the outcome that my my deepest desire is where meaningful change that's enduring yeah never happens that way you have to wait patiently for the invitation if you're ever going to want to secure a will that is wanting to cooperate and I don't know about you but my growing up in Christianity did not equip me to believe what you just said no because we're supposed to almost like force people to the you know I'm going to get them to submit to this opinion and you look at Jesus in the Gospels and how he's dealing with people in which he's got the real truth of the whole universe and yet he's not putting it on people until people are ready to sometimes he says don't tell nobody yeah please what and sometimes he's telling parables so they don't recognize it not because he doesn't love them but because he does and they'll get lost in what they the truth they're not ready to respond with will kill them disciples invites them in a room now they can talk about it he's going to unpack it for them and they want to unpack it forever I don't think it's the same as they're well he didn't he didn't like the rest of those people only the only the disciples were given to know I think only disciples were ready to know yes and and we don't even deal with real truth I love the inside out little movie where they bungle up the opinions and the facts into a big mess and the the character in the story just oh people get those mixed up all the time oh my gosh I think that's so funny because I hear it all the time people in conversations I think that's why I'm coming to really love lunch and dinner with three or four people instead of a room full of 15 to 20 people who have got a lot of agendas and judgments that is still a modified lecture and when you hear somebody go off on their opinion as truth and you know it's their opinion I mean that's not like I don't know I really know that's it's not even an accurate opinion it's not even truth right but you're convinced it is and you're going to make the whole room see it or the whole blood comment let's see it the way you see it and you're going to accuse people of stuff and make assumptions about people who don't I we said this a long time ago someone wrote us this email I probably five six years ago religion makes us relationally challenged and I just I love that I think it does and when you're making accusation we make an assumptions about what people think or believe or what they're doing you're involved in that whole relationally challenged hemisphere and if we don't get this just in our individual lives and then with wider connections of people we're never going to have it in Washington or anywhere else and I think that's why it's like you know what theory I just I have a bit of a disdain for because I'm going like you know what there's always mitigating specific circumstances in which truth has to be applied that the theory didn't talk about right so if I'm ever going to produce meaningful change I got to deal with something concrete I've got to deal with an actual situation I can pontificate about a thousand things right but the only thing that's going to actually be helpful is the one that you you have to in this circumstance apply and guess what I need the Holy Spirit to help me there yeah because my my rule may need some adjustment to fit yeah and and that's not compromising the truth it's saying no I'm acknowledging the people yeah and they're part of the solution if if they don't willingly embrace this the minute I'm gone they jettison it yeah I had this thought in a conversation in Nashville and didn't do anything with it because I haven't had time to process it out but you remind I've forgotten all about it but we're talking about something I was thinking about that second Timothy 316 about all scriptures given by inspiration God for reproof correction for training in righteousness none of those things have to do with doctrine all of those things have to do with you just said someone's in a situation having to make a choice how am I informed about the choice that is the better use of spirit and scripture than ever we read through our proof texts and line out our doctrines and proclaim them I and I haven't really pursued this whole I've been thinking man is that scripture that what really makes a difference about everything we're talking about is when you're living this not pontificating on concepts it's not even that are in the ether it's not even truth when it's just theory because I mean it seems to me that all of the words that that that mean something in scripture knowledge is never just information it's always lived out truth it's like it's not knowledge you don't know it till you lived it till you did it yeah it's theory yeah and it's nice and it's beautiful you can put it on a plaque but it doesn't mean anything until it actually gets processed through a life in a circumstance it's not knowledge you don't know and we don't teach people in that in that domain where it's like we're supposed to be empowering them to be dependent upon the Holy Spirit not dependent on what they memorized but our bias as a culture and Christianity is right in this is to find an expert and follow them find the author the pastor the person and this is another thing when I'm in a conversation you can tell when someone's talking down to the room I have figured this out you're all morons so let me school you oh my gosh and the room just lightens up and the presence of God is felt never does the expert only grows increasingly frustrated when people aren't as excited about his stuff as they are he is yeah she is here's what I know here's what I'd love to say the best experts and I'm putting air quotes around that you can't see those I got it the best people I know matured on this journey never act like experts in a room yeah they never do the only person acting like an expert is the one who isn't really who's got opinions traveling his facts and he doesn't know the difference or she the people who've done what you've just said lived this life made hard choices in the face of God's leading suffered the consequences been hurt by other people are doing those people they won't throw their wisdom at you until you're ready for it they won't try to convince you that there's a better way I remember Dave Coleman one of those brothers in my life for seeing we just he threw out a question just what do you think about this and I just if you don't take the bait and go there you'd miss out on a whole wealth of things you would discover because what he knows is if you're not asking back you won't hear it anyway let's go right on through because you're so passionate about your deal that you're going to miss the truth of what's going on right around you Jesus was that way as well he was the best expert in the room he had it all and yet he's not lecturing people on conceptual theories of whatever he's inviting them into an engagement with his father well I mean you said there's like really you're just going to get 12 guys you that that's all you're you get for three years let's don't marry Martha and marry Matt let's talk a few others in there 15 or 20 okay you could you could say 500 the the reality is is still he wasn't mass producing anybody well you didn't have a website dude that cost you yeah I'm sorry but investing in a life and teaching that life to live that's that's the kind of Christianity that I'm going where's that stuff because yeah that one isn't a mass produced lecture I have nothing I've nothing against big lectures and information but none of that is going to make a difference in anyone's life till the hungry heart takes that information and starts to apply it in the circumstances of their life and those are very different than the circumstances of the life next to them yeah and that's where Christianity is like folks if we gave more attention to that the world would shift it would I mean things would things would actually be different not just we're frustrated at why they don't change yeah and I would even go a little step from what you just said in saying that not only is it just getting truth to someone that's going to make sense in their life but now helping a heart be loved enough from its own brokenness that it can be open to that truth yeah loving I think loving always precedes truth and it's always I think that's what I loved about the shack when I first read it was here's God building a bridge to Mac with affection so that he can bring the light into the circumstance we often in the religious thing we want to bring light to be I know the truth if you just knew the truth you'd be better you'd be better what if the heart is so broken it can't even receive truth yet right and love is what prepares the ground for truth to soak into it and that's why when people in conversation Simon come up as experts or fixers they have not even loved they don't even know the person they met them two hours ago you don't know that person you don't know the intersection of their heart with truth they're they're whether they're even a place where God's making himself real in them if they're soft enough to even hear and why we stay in the realm of ideas instead of relationships is because we're afraid because I think we've learned that truth is more powerful and love when love is the most important part of truth I don't know how you make that shift in people but that is I think the one thing that's evident when when someone is interested in you it's not hard to find out whether that's genuine or not they're asking questions and they're actually listening to you yeah absolutely and if anyone ever does that most all of us feel something positive that says wow yeah I feel valued and what what encourages people into honor when you're vulnerable people be vulnerable around you experts fixers they're not vulnerable everyone shields up absolutely poking device not the door you can't find me I think if we can find a way to recognize God asked me to love them he didn't ask me to fix them absolutely and if I would love them and and that that means I gotta know what's there I gotta somehow find a way to put my arms around what is you better start asking a few questions and then listening because I don't know that we come in with this omniscience I know no and and if we would start to do that I think I think dynamics would change conversations would be different when they're argumentative between experts someone's trying to win the debate all heat oh thank you for traveling with us today on The God Journey you can join this conversation by visiting thegodjourney.com