When Sovereignty Turns to Fatalism (#554) — http://thegodjourney.com/2016/10/21/when-sovereignty-turns-to-fatalism-554/

Outside the box of religious obligation lies a road less traveled into the heart of the father's affection. Slinging freedom all over the place, this is the God Jam, the God Jam, the God Jam. Well, it's back on the road again. I was thinking the other day, I've had about three months where I've been every night with my wife for the last three months. And I don't remember another time in the last 20 years where that's been true. Oh, wow. I just climbed back on an airplane, and I haven't been on one since early July. That's good. Yeah, doing it tomorrow, but that's two weeks ago at the time this airs. And then after that, I'm going to actually be up in Tennessee and then down in Richmond, Virginia. You're flying everywhere. Going up to Wisconsin and Michigan eventually. You're going to get some medallion awards for doing that. But I have really enjoyed, and I haven't gotten tired of it, though Sarah mentioned the other day, it's about time for me to travel again. I'm not kidding. I like being home. She's pretty good, but I do, too. I do. I do. I like being home bad. Yeah. It's like bad travel. Nah, it's okay. But I like being home. Yeah, me too. Well, I'm Wayne Jacobson. I'm Brad Cummings. This is the God Journey. Welcome back. This is all good. It's all good. It's all good. You're doing well. I'm doing great. You know what? Great. You ever do poorly? Yes. Okay. That could be true just about any time during a day. There's always challenges, but I really love what God's, I feel like I'm growing up and I really love that. I feel like he's maturing my perspective and patience with people. That was not true of me. I'm putting myself shocked. Just sitting here. That's sad. But yeah, I'm sure. I get that. I'm going to enjoy that, too. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a profound gift to be able to not only enjoy for yourself, but to be able to give to other people is I just sort of recognize we're all in a seriously lifelong process of growing and how cool is that? And I don't have the impatience I once had in regard to that for myself or for others. I hear you. I remember a while back a few weeks ago that we knew back in my pasturing days, it was a member of the fellowship then, went through a very difficult physical time in his life and ended up on the Central Coast for health reasons. And I was just asking myself, how many people from the old days come over and visit here? He goes, no one. You and Sarah are the only ones. That's terrible. Yeah, it was terrible. It was like four years ago. And then we were last there, so it's been a while for us. And we love that. I always have a great time talking to them. Their spiritual journey has been awesome, even though we've had some real physical challenges to deal with, or maybe because of, but I love their journey. And in the middle of it, he's talking about, I said, this is a real different way. What do you mean? Remember back in the days when you were a pasturing man? The other pastor was known as the people guy. You were the work guy, man. You always had stuff, projects, work going on. I said, yeah, I do. I remember. And because he was asking what I do when I travel, and I said, I mostly just sit down and talk to people. Yeah, you know a bunch of seminars, I mostly sit down and talk to people. They ask questions. We talk about God. I try and help them connect with something more real in their experience. And he was dumbfounded. And I like dumbfounding people because I remember. I remember my high school counselor telling me, I didn't even like people when she asked what I was going to do with my life. And I said, I was going to go into the pastoral ministry. You can't. You don't even like people. And my thought at the time was, what do you need to like people for? I just got to be the one standing up on Sunday. No, no, I just, I think my calling to ministry came down to I'd rather be the one standing up in the public. If I had to be here every Sunday morning, I would be the leader. I'd rather be the one up front talking than the one sitting here having to listen. It may have been that. Which leads me to a question from Will. Oh, you're going to say something. Go ahead. You were going to say something. I was going to ask you, do you have a sense of what changed or what sent you on a different journey of change in that? I mean, for someone to be dumbfounded, like, who is this guy? That's not the guy I know. And you're not smarting or reacting to that. You're kind of like, yeah, I know what shifted that? Why are you different? What what what did you come to see that you didn't see before that changed all that because, you know, not just it's not just that you're different. You enjoy seeing things totally different. Yeah. I wrote a little book called He Loves Me. Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah. Yeah. To me tells a story. But as soon as you start talking, I'm going, you know what? In the old days, Wayne. Striving to be loved by God to be significant in the world. I was driven to programs driven to writing driven to everything. Very driven guy type A. And the more I got one into, you know, God loves me. I don't have to do those things to earn his love. And it's not that I pedal stuff. I still write. I still do seminars when I'm asked to. I still but my passion now, I mean, I can go do a teaching thing for an afternoon with people. But I tell you, at the end of the day, I'll have more fun having been to lunch with somebody writing or the conversation we got into would be a hundred times better than because in a group situation, we're mostly talking about issues and what about church and what about Hebrews 10 25 and what about, you know, I don't mind talking about that stuff because I know it's a big part of the journey for a lot of people. But I enjoy when somebody just opens up their heart and feels like I'm a safe person to kind of go deep with. And I was never the safe person to go deep with because I had a way to fix it. Yeah, do this, do that. The reason that happened is you're not doing this. Yeah, I can see why people go like, no, thanks. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So what it will say. Well, I don't know if I can get into this could take a while. But Phil was asking, is there a call to minister? You skimmed over this question a little bit in your last episode. I don't know what episode that was. We've been holding this somewhere. It certainly wasn't the sex talk with the lady that's airing now. So I'm really curious about what your opinion is, though, or rather another attempt to further the fiefdom of me. You talked about in a previous podcast, is it merely serving my self interest and ego to think about serving in a church all the while building up my own kingdom? Now, I don't think that people could consciously know or admit to this, but there is something which excites us, or at least me, about thinking about building my ministry for God. Warning, warning, intruder alert. That's that's not as obvious as he writes that. I think that's very subtle for a lot of us. We, most everybody I know, they do find a tremendous amount of self gratification in being able to help somebody. Yep. And I end up wondering, like, was that for you? Or was that for them? Yeah, you know, I do. Yeah. So is it the institution's way of, here's your favorite word, sucking people in and grabbing hold of them, believing that they're serving the Lord when, in fact, they may be serving the machine more than they realize. And I do agree that for most people, they do not want to love and serve the Lord, but get strapped into all the workings of an institution without realizing what's happened. Oh, most people do want to love and serve the Lord. Let's make that clear. I was going to say, I don't know if I agree with that. Wow, big mistake. If you believe there's a true call of ministry, I'm guessing it's not the traditional one. And I believe that there is. Would you be willing to give your thoughts on what does it mean? Where does it lead? What can you expect? Wow. Small subject. I do. I think God has a wonderful purpose and a call upon each in every life. But I don't think that is an institutionally defined or only validated in those bounds. Yeah. Dynamic. I think that I think unfortunately, we've we've suffered under far too long of definition of that, that has really made the church this isolated thing over in this swirling itty, as opposed to living normal life and the fact that maybe God wants a good name for a pastor swirling itty swirling itty that's a great name. Wow, I'm swirling itty. Welcome to this edition. That's great. That's a great name. Sorry, I lost the train of thought, but I thought that was stupid to pass up. Wow. Keep those cards and letters coming for that one. Swirling itty. We can do some great scans. I tell you. That is so funny. I don't even know what you're talking about, but I heard swirling itty and I'm going, wow. In order in order to serve the fiefdom of me, when you when you as pastor swirling itty swirling itty would tell us, it only validates the stuff that builds up the program and I end up going like, but what would be probably far more fruitful in impacting and loving lives is if people were just in their normal life as opposed to the overlay of all the meetings and stuff they got to go to. Yeah, you know, when he says is very called to the ministry and you're specifically talking about being in a institutional environment's religious machinery as an authority. Miles starts happening in the back of your throat. Yep, mutter. Yep, mutter. Mutter. And it's not to say I know guys who are in ministry roles who really do it with the life, love, and character of Jesus. So I think the calling is to the life, love, and character of Jesus and they put you in a setting where you're doing it, but I do think, is it the institution's way of sucking people in Greg Holder them? I do think it is that to some extent, not for everybody. It seems as if there's a gravitational dynamic towards that, that not even the guys running it are being honest with or all that aware of. It's what we've inherited. And even in the old days, and I mean really old days back to 1800 years, it was the way, well about 15, it was the way that non-rich families could put their son into a role in society that would give them access to royalty and advancement in the way of living. So it got to be, very early on it was one of those things. Yeah. And for the Roman Empire, when it collapsed, the Bishop of Rome was the thing to be instead of the Caesar of Rome because Rome collapsed and all those rich families that wanted their kids to be a big deal. Now it was, you don't be the emperor because there's no empire. Now you want to be the Bishop of Rome, which is the pope and the predecessor of the church in their view of it. So I think I had a very genuine calling to help people grow in Christ. I do, because I tried not to do that. I wanted to be an air traffic controller and I felt like God asked me. Same difference. It was for a season in my life. When I was swirling at him, yeah, I'd swirl them aircraft right here. But I think it was a genuine calling to want to help equip people to get the tools to be biblically astute and aware, to help people get a journey. Yeah. God has given you gifts of being able to communicate effectively and help truth become really relevant in people's lives. That isn't true of everybody. But that wasn't used much in the management necessities of an institution. No. I spent little of my time actually helping people grow and more planning, implementing, and fixing and doing the cleanup after programs didn't work so well. Yeah, all that. So I think God does call people. I like what you said earlier. He calls us all. We're all called to be in the world as a reflection of His glory. Now some of us vocationally, or even a scary word, I think there are people who are called not just for their own growth and loving other people, but really have something in them that's genuine, not just, I want to be the front of the stage. I really want to help people grow. I want to help people get this journey. And so what does it mean? Where does it lead? And what can I expect? I think this is where you follow Jesus. I don't think there's something to aspire to. I think if you follow him, he'll put you where he wants you to be. If we if we thought about it in the context of family, there's different seasons in your life where it's like, you know what? I'm a child who's learning. And then there are seasons in life where you're a parent who is really guiding and teaching. And I don't know anyone, if you're in a family, unless you're single forever, I think all of us fit within that. If we understood church more as a family, I don't know that we would need these kind of classifications because it's like, you know, are there equipping ministries? Certainly. I believe in that. But who isn't supposed to be engaged in that? Right. Am I sort of like, if we're all supposed to be engaged in the job of making other disciples? Yeah. Well, what does that not involve in terms of living life and living it alongside other people in a way that if there's something that God has given to you as understanding that's helpful that you're able to sort of pass it along to an interested learner, who is it supposed to do that? Is there any believer on the planet that's exempted from that basic function? I don't think so. I think we're all supposed to be part of it. That's part of how truth really gets established in me. I remember 5% of what I hear. I remember 95% of what I teach. So if I learn how to take this and be able to share this with somebody else, it becomes that much more real inside me. Yeah. When you say teach, I want to underscore 90% of teaching is in a conversation. Most people say, I got to teach in a lecture. Now, you forget 90% of what you teach in a lecture. It's not about a stage. It's not a lecture. It's where you're sharing your life with people and lights are coming on because God's making himself known or his truth known. I'd say 95% of what you share. That would be a far better way to say it. Yeah, it would be. I just want people to remember, I think teaching is, oh man, I got to get a platform. I heard from a guy this week that just, I've got some great stuff to share and no place to share it. Why is God not putting people in your life? No, he was thinking more of a institutional modality. And it trips us up when we kind of go that way. But one of the few things I think you said earlier about serving, the idea of ministry now as a leadership role in which you get other people to serve your vision, which is now the common definition of what a pastor is. Whether they say it or not. Yeah, I've written a column, written the thing for the Phenomenon of the Dunns book about where we get Paul wrong. And part of where we get Paul wrong is we take words like ministry, which he means serving, and we put it into leading. And uncritically, now we can quote Paul to support our As he said. Yeah, our stupidity, which is overstated for sure. Just put it bluntly like that, would you? I got this piece of, this little quote from a book that was written in 1867. Oh, okay. And it was written by a poet who was actually a soldier in the Civil War for the South. Civil War South Guy. And many of you know, because I've talked about in the podcast, in fact, I'm going back to Richmond to visit my friend who's writing a Civil War book, I think it's just the most outstanding book I've ever read. You know Bob, we've met Bob. He's been on some podcasts with us. He's looking off for the ether. Oh my gosh, there's so much funny and rich. In the end of this novel, he actually quotes this part, and the book's not written yet, so don't write me for a copy of the book because it's not out yet. It won't be out for another six years because the guy's slow. But anyway, this from 1867 from a soldier who fought in the Civil War, he says this, that the preachers imagined and so conjured Christ to rally men to war, that Christ was worse hailed upon than anyone before or since. But he always refused to protect himself though fully able to do it from any war banyan, and that he did upon all occasions, not only discouraged the resort to this measure, but it in vay, this is, this is tough language back in the Civil War. I'm trying to follow you. But did in vay against it more earnestly than anyone else as the highest and heaviest crime against love. If war was ever right, then Christ was ever wrong. For war flowers and the vine of Christ grow in different ways in as much that no man may grow both. Not a clue? Not a clue. Wow. I'm utterly lost. I was listening so hard, but I don't get it. What? Wow. Is, is he saying if war is, his point was both sides of the Civil War conjured Christ. Yes. As their reason for defending states rights in the south. Right. For defending slavery. Preventing slavery from the north. Both in vay Christ, both used Christ to get people to sign up for this war, and the tragedy that became brother killing brother and all that was nothing to do with who Christ is always doing in the world. That was a justification. Yeah. But it was the thing we've often been taught, you know, if government, if you're in one of those sides of that conflict, you were prevailed upon as your right to duty and Christ and your civil leaders. That's our default justification and it's not always at all accurate. The following authorities? That or just we, I think at times we tend to invoke God to justify our opinion. All the time. You know? Yeah. And it's like, I'm going to do it right now. All right, go brother. Me and swirling it. I did not see that go. I didn't either. That's very funny. What is in that bottle of your? Gatorade, man. It looks like Gatorade. Wow. That's good. Yeah. No, I think we default and we just assumed that my passion of my opinion, therefore it is God. And we invoke that. And I'm just going like, I don't think that's wisdom. I don't think that's necessarily true at all. I bet you didn't hear anything. And we use scriptures to do it. You know, we can use scriptures to justify slavery, to abolish slavery, to justify discrimination, to scripture is used in the same way today. The election we've got coming up, the same thing, both sides, deeply passionate God followers. And there's fallen God in two different ways. The thing that bugs me the most. Yeah. What bugs you the most? I find so many Christians are like subtle fatalists, as if, you know what, we're going to have the president that God wants us to, because God appoints all leadership. Right. You don't believe that? Not the way they're saying it. No, I don't. Okay. I mean, it's like we're in a democracy and we're given this privilege and responsibility to vote. Sam, I'm hoping God stuff in the ballot box. So he gets it. That's what that belief has to apply. It's like, well, somehow God's cheating. He just, you know, this is a ruse. And I'm like, I don't think this is a ruse. I think we actually are responsible for the leaders we elect. And therefore, I, as a believer, my gosh, do I have a responsibility to go, hey, Lord, help me see with wisdom and clarity what matters and what would be most helpful for our country. And even given just the two choices we have. But you vote in California. Your vote doesn't count if you're not voting Democrat. No, it does. It just doesn't sway it to the direction I think it'd be helpful. I feel very outnumbered. I'm still going to vote. Yeah, me too. Because God might just stuff the ballot box, right? He might. He, gosh, I hate that. No, I think I was raised with that. I was raised with the idea that all authorities appointed by God, God raises up leaders and others, he, you know, doesn't raise up and destroy. Doesn't that just seem like fatalism? Like it's like, oh, whatever happens is God's will. Yeah, as I look back over my life of 63 years, I'm going, that seems kind of stupid to me. Because we had a lot of leaders. I think the Romans 14 point, I think it's where we drew that from. I mean, I think God says he raised up Pharaoh, specifically Pharaoh, to serve a certain function in history. He didn't vote for Pharaoh. No, no. But God raised him up. He's saying God can't work in a democracy, is that your point? No, I'm saying it's a little different. But do you think every death spot that ever came to power was God's choice to rule that people? Me personally? No. Yeah, me either. Not at all. That's just crazy. Yeah, that would be crazy. I look at that. You say God raised up Hitler, God raised up Stalin. And some people actually say, yeah, God needed an evil man to do something further. See, that's where I'm just going, I cannot follow nor can I justify that, because that makes God the devil. Yeah. And you're going, no, no, no, no, no. But can God individually, in a moment, raise up a person? Yes. But I don't assume that about everybody in every place and everything. That's where I kind of like, they take that verse in Romans. I'm going, I think that means something different than the way you're applying that. Well, what does it mean? I think that God has established authority as a realm. And then I think when you're dealing in a democracy where he's given us the responsibility of participating in that, I sort of feel like, well, we're involved. That means he's not doing all the voting. We actually can do something that does matter. And therefore, whether we participate or fail to participate, the end outcome is partly our doing. If God is doing something different than that, if he's stuffing the ballot box, I'm like, that kind of makes everything else a ruse. I don't see it as just those two options. No. And at the end of the day, Romans 14 is saying, no matter who gets elected, they're still having authority that you're to respect and regard, pay your taxes, pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Yeah. I mean, that's what Romans 14 is talking about, saying, you know, the rulers are supposed to do good and so if you do good yourself, you're not going to run afoul of the law. And he's really encouraging that kind of, he's doing it to one of the most despotic governments that existed for the Christians in Rome. He's dealing with an authority, these emperors that were consigning Christians to be slaughtered and murdered. And Nero wasn't so good. Yeah. Well, he's written a little before Nero. But in spite of the fact, I don't think he's saying, Nero was God's choice to rule Rome. No. I mean, I don't believe God is the famous. But most people believe that, and I did for a lot of my life. Why do we do that? Because I think that it's like we're running away, we're abdicating so much of what I think our function is in society and with people, which is to, I'm supposed to love others unto a place of change and transformation. But isn't part of it just, I feel even in a democracy of 310 million people, I feel like my vote doesn't count. I feel like, not that it won't be counted, but it's only about a third of those people really participate and elect somebody. Right. So 110 million people. Well, it's 170 adults. I forget that number. No, it's 310 adults. So say 100 million vote in the election. Still, it's pretty, particularly if you live in an area where your vote never seems to matter. Yeah. And one of the things, and the other part of that is, I want to believe that God's bigger than the garbage we have in Washington, D.C. Because it hasn't mattered in the last, how many elections, whether an R or a D goes to Washington. The same things keep happening. Yeah, they're not very different and they think that government is the solution. The corruption keeps growing. And we're kind of an election where people are just kind of fed up with what it is, and yet we don't really have the alternatives to help change that yet. But hopefully the frustration, I'm hoping the frustration leads to something different in years to come, and we can get back on a better track as a country. I think we have too much of a microwave mindset with all this stuff, because if just somehow whoever we put into office, well, that will solve it. No, it won't. It might help, it might hinder. You got to be old before you figure that out. I guess. Welcome to 50. Yeah. I look at this, I'm going like, I don't want to give into the despair-inducing thought of, oh, I'm powerless because I'm not. I can be engaged. But chances are, without seeking to help influence the thinking of other people, my one little act, when the whole tide seems to be going the other way, it isn't going to make a whole lot of difference. I think we've lost that sense of the discourse between neighbors where we really talk about this as engaged people. People avoid politics and religion. They don't talk about those because those are almost always arguments. Yeah, I talk about both. But I'm with you. I really do feel like we've got to do our part, do what we can do, do whatever. I was just trying to speak for those that say, man, I'm hoping that God, no matter what we do or what our country does, God's going to still put the right person in power. That's what people want to do. I got bunches of friends that are 40 days of prayer and fasting onto the election. Like somehow my prayer and fasting is going to change everybody's, you know, that's going to overrule their vote. And I'm going like, I'm all for the prayer. I'm not exactly sure how that engages if you're not also engaging in a dialogue about the issues that matter and helping to sway hearts and open eyes that here's truth. I sort of feel like if you're just over in the corner, just praying as if somehow this is all going to magically happen at the ballot box, I don't think that's an effective strategy. So you're not doing it the 40 day fast? No, I'm engaging in the prayer side of that. But I'm not, I'm not thinking that that alone. I just end up going like, I don't think we're supposed to be wielding our power against other people's thoughtful process. I just, I don't think that's the job of the church. I'm supposed to, I'm going to lean into God so that you don't have a thought or a choice in what you do. Yeah, but I think that's one of the things somehow people have gotten the idea that we can. I got an email from someone recently whose brother is an addict or something and they were going to fast for 30 days, 40 days to see if God would, would that provide the spiritual breakthrough they need? And my response is, I don't know. I don't know. I think your brother's involved in the choice. If he's winning to break spiritual bondages, that fasting may help him. If he's not, and you're hoping your fasting is going to make God do something against someone else's will, then I think you're barking up the wrong tree. See, I think, I think prayer and fasting kind of, they can break spiritual bonds. I do believe that are demons. I do think they're principalities. I do believe we can in our submission to God, use those means as powerful tools to break strongholds. But that doesn't force the will of an individual. That may reduce the influence of a demonic stronghold over a person, an area. And I'm going to like, I want to use the spiritual powers to be able to pull that influence off. But I still have to engage that person as someone that God loves and isn't causing all of their choices. He's not in their will, making them do it. I mean, it's like the story of, you shall not pass. These are not the droids you're looking at. I think when you try to use spiritual stuff, like those Jedi mind tricks on people, if somehow that's the way we're supposed to do it, I'm going like, I think God loves those people far more than that expresses. I think it matters to him, their chooser and their willing engagement. I don't see God doing anything that overrides the will of another human being. I just don't see him do that. Yeah, I don't think that's what intercession is for. Yeah, I'm not even sure to be honest. I'm not even sure. I've been a lot of prayer meetings trying to affect the Prince, the Pallies and Powers of a given region. You're throwing hatches at the moon. And I really don't have a clue that anything ever changed because we did all that. I think it's drawn from some pretty obscure scriptures. Daniel's case, he was praying and God was doing a battle that Daniel was unaware of. And I'm all for God doing battles I'm unaware of. I think what we most affect the world we live in. Yeah, praying and fasting to build up ourselves in the life of God and whatever. But it's loving and serving people. It's where we started this thing. It's loving and serving, conversing with people around you and whether that's a political conversation. I'm still not thinking every Christian listening to this podcast needs to get out there and fight for this election and get involved politically and say what you need to say to your neighbors and whatever. I'm not thinking all of us have the passion for that right now. And I don't know that it's our responsibility too. I think if it is, God will make you passionate about it. I think God can't leave you to do it. But I do love the let's move away from the fatalistic idea that without my engagement, God's going to do whatever he wants done anyway. I think that hurts a lot of people. And I don't mean just at the political level. I mean at a personal level, things in your own life that you're dealing with are people you love. God wants an engagement with you that shapes how he and you act in the environments that make a difference. Yeah, see. I don't believe it. That's where I'm not going to add a political should on people. But I do think that... It's good. You'll get t-shirts back. Yeah, I know. I do think that as believers, as Christians, we are given the call to be salt and light. How you particularly want to express that is really what you ought to be asking of God with him as you're having that engagement. I think so oftentimes the subtle fatalism that just says, well, at the end of the day, whatever happens, that will be God's will. I'm just going like, I don't believe that at all. Yeah, that's not true in your life. That's not true in the life of the nation or the world. I don't think it's true. I think God is sovereign in that God will wrap up this history the way he wants to. He will. But that's going to be out of the responses that people make and that he makes to people. And he can drive history to the exact conclusion he wants of it. He has that ability, but I think he will be driving that history to that conclusion through a participating body of people. Absolutely. Whether you personally will be a part of that is really kind of up to you because I don't see God forcing that engagement. Oh, yeah. But I think we have tons of theological disengagement as if somehow, well, it just is going to happen. Yeah. And I'm going like, I think it really matters how you engage with the Lord. Exactly what you're supposed to do. Well, that's supposed to be the fruit of your discussion with him. And that's not my telling you. Yeah. And how you engage with the world. Because when Jesus was questioned before Pilate, his expression was like, if my kingdom were coming this way, my guys would have swords. This is not a political kingdom. It doesn't mean God doesn't want to influence political life, but there's many more ways to affect the culture we live in than just his politics. Yeah. I just, I look at this election in particular and I just go like, Cali, what we do does matter. How we engage with that does matter. Does. And I end up going like, OK, well, does that mean that God's going to put this guy in office? I don't think God's going to put that guy in office. I think our vote is going to put that person in office. Or that woman. Yeah. And is it the end of the world if it's that woman? I'm going like, shouldn't you be praying for either to have a heart to be moved by God and to recognize its need for God? My attitude is, I want to pray for both of them. I'm going to make my particular vote and I kind of hope that that's the direction it goes. But it's not the end of the world if the other person that I didn't vote for is president. Because I'm like, I take from Romans where it's going like, that's still an authority. Therefore, I need to be praying for that person, whoever it is. Yeah, and I'm submitting to the laws that that authority puts in play. And I just, but I get so frustrated with just this, well, you know, that's God's will. It's like, I don't think so. I get more frustrated. I hear your frustration. I think it's true. I as one who's tried to influence the political process and probably gave more attention to it than I probably needed to and saw the fruitlessness of that. I'm much more on the page now of and I talk about political things because I'm still very interested in it. But I think the impact on the world is at a different level. That's why Jesus didn't come. And I know he's in a he's under a dictatorship. So he didn't have the really the will or the opportunity to influence the political landscape under which he lived. But I think he was trying to instill a kingdom that was going to overthrow the political realities of human kingdoms eventually. I don't mean overthrow it politically. I just mean something more real. Yeah, something that supersedes all of that. And when Paul talks about the church, and talking about getting Paul wrong, when Paul talks about the church and it being the family through which God demonstrates himself to the world, that to me, I think that was always the church, the true church, not man's religious versions of it, but the brothers and sisters in the world loving each other and laying down their lives for one another and watching how God makes himself known through that. That was what was supposed to put God on display to the principalities and powers. Yes. It wasn't prayer sessions. I mean, I was in a prayer session 10 years ago. I was 20 years ago. He first moved to Ventura. They were praying in a house and somebody told them this was the house, the original first governor of California lived in or something in Ventura. And then it was, they would pray for stuff that never, ever happened. It was just, we're just going to give God our wish list. And one of them I remember would no homosexual act ever happen again in California. And I'm going, that's the stupidest prayer I've ever heard. And I've heard a lot of stupid prayers. That's just stupid as if God's going to just, okay, thank you for praying that. Now I'm going to keep everything, or I'm going to keep every abortion from happening, or I'm going to. The idea that God is at our beck and call to Trump where we're not involved in influencing America. And there's lots of ways, if you're passionate about abortion or gay rights, where lots of places for you to have an input into this world. There is. But in more constructive ways, hopefully I'm just going to scream at the ceiling. It seems weird to me that we take the idea of prayer and engagement with God, as if that can be a coercive force that overrules a human will. Me too. I end up going, I don't think that's loving that person that may disagree with you. May be a complete total rebellion and error. That's still not the way God engages that heart. Right. And I just go like, somehow we've got to have a better approach to spiritual stuff and go like, prayer and fasting is for me to humble myself and draw near to God and listen more than it is to exert a will. And in the process of that, I think God can do a marvelous stuff. But I don't think it's meant to be coercively applied to those who disagree with me, as if I'm now going to overrule whatever you think or do. And it's like, I think we've got to do a far more meaningful job of seeing that person as someone that God loves and engaging them in friendship and dialogue if we have any hope of affecting the way they think or what they do. Yeah. And in our own spiritual journey, decrying the fatalism that says, I'm just going to do whatever I want. And God's love for me is going to do whatever he wants in my life. That's the other side of the same thing, this fatalistic that I'm not involved, that God is not someone to seek to know. I just, part of what Sarah and I were reading in Timothy, he writes in Timothy about, train your body like someone in a gymnasium. Train your spiritual life. You take seriously what it is to seek God, to listen to Him, to follow Him, to go where it's difficult because he just asks you to go and be there. And I think in the whole love talk sometimes about God, we get the idea that, well, it doesn't matter what I do in my life, God's just going to have his way anyway. Same fatalism. This is a magic wand approach to life. Yeah. And I think, again, there's two ditches to get off into. One is, I don't do anything, God just take care of itself. The other thing is, I got to pray and fast and do because then I got to make God do. And none of those are real. There's just this honest, God wants to have an engagement with you and you with him that will shape a reality in your life that will be transforming. It's not all him. It's not all you. It's him and you. It's a dance. We did that prayer dancing before. It's a dance. He does most of it because he's the God guy and he's got all the good stuff. But our compliance. Our surrender, our will, our engagement. Yeah. Our focus on him, our growing in that part of my life and not just busy doing all the stuff the world throws at me and going, I wish I had a better relationship with God. It does take some seeking, some focus, some attention, some not works to earn it, but focus to recognize how he makes himself. Engagement and communication. There's no friendship that just happens. Like, well, I don't see the person. I don't talk to them. But, oh, we're close. No, you're not. Yeah, or Brad just happens to show up here when we need to do a podcast. And I'm just sitting here with Mike's ready to go. No, you converse, you plan, you plot. You say, okay, what about this time? Does that work for you? Yeah. And I sort of feel like if we engaged in that, I think we might capture a little more of God's heart for those that we disagree with. At least that's been happening to me a ton of late where I'm just going like, okay, as opposed to I used to see them as the enemy, those that disagree, that somehow I've got to diminish their influence and I've got to win the battle. Now I'm seeing them in a whole different space where it's like, Lord, how does the way in which I'm relating to you draw me into a place of potential ability to effect that. Thank you for traveling with us today on The God Journey. You can join this conversation by visiting thegodjourney.com.